Who made this?

[Tarquin Biscuitbox]

I'd be extremely grateful if anyone could please help me to identify the maker of this flat-backed mandolin - possibly made around the year 1900?

[Ray(T)]

I'd hazard a guess that it's Italian, mid 20th Century, and point out that the bridge is in the wrong place. (Needs moving south towards the harmonic suppresser; the thing with two screws in it. No label I take it?

[EdHanrahan]

Disclaimer: I'm far from expert on this stuff, but the anomalies have forced me to respond!

Not a clue who made it, but maybe a related question is "who restored it?" Or maybe, "who built it to LOOK like an old mandolin?"

It just looks too pretty to be really that old without having been refinished, especially considering the "too perfect" weathering of the tuner backplates; they appear to have gone thru "relicking" or "distressing"; that is, take new equipment and make it look old. Might they be actual ivory tuner buttons, or plastic made to look that way?

At least at the 1900's era, I believe that most (if not all) tuners were "worm over", where string tension tends to pull the cog away from the worm, whereas these are the more modern "worm under" ('30s and later?), where the leverage of string tension tends to force the gears together.

OTOH, the tuners have two indicators of being fairly old: the gears are riveted to the string posts (rather than using machine screws), and the gear teeth are relatively square, meshing with worm teeth that are relatively (my term) "knife-edge". You're unlikely to see that on more modern tuners UNLESS, maybe, one of the custom tuner makers (only Alessi comes to mind) were asked to build such old-spec gears, probably for huge bucks.

(Sidebar: In the '60s, I had a long-term part-time job in a small factory that made only non-standard gears: tooth sizes & shapes that might not normally fit together except that the customer wanted them. Maybe that's why nobody else here has mentioned geartooth shape, at least since I've been hanging out.)

For comparison, here's Stew-Mac's modern equivalent:
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...FYwmhgodYskA9A

You might want to compare the string-spacing specs, AND do check out the video by Dan Erlewine.

Also odd is the pickguard / scratchplate that extends under the bridge AND at an angle (relatively severe?) to define some string compensation. That is definitely non-standard (and maybe modern?) thinking! And, some would say, it sort of precludes using different-gauge strings that might differing compensation.

As stated up front I'm no expert, but these are the questions that pop out.

[EdHanrahan]

... towards the harmonic suppresser; the thing with two screws in it.

Ray, I don't think that's a harmonic suppressor, but a string guide intended to provide add'l downward tension against the bridge. Unlike Weber's "wood nymph", it's probably screwed right into the top. Some older (mostly Italian?) mandolin builders did that. Sort of like Fender does at the headstock end of their guitars, if only for some strings. Or I'm wrong!

[Ray(T)]

Ed - having had another look, I would agree perhaps the o/p would confirm that it's actually screwed into the top rather than held together by "cross headed" screws. I should however say that I only mentioned the suppressor in order to suggest which way the bridge should be shifted and I didn't think it was original.

As far as the tuners go, they've clearly been treated in some way - the cross headed screws are again a give-away. They do look old to me and I think the buttons could be bone.

The marquetry around the sound hole does however suggest an Italian origin and, If I remember correctly, herringbone purfling originated in Germany.

[fox]

You could measure back from the 12 fret the same distance to the bridge location...... looks to me (by eye) the bridges need to go back an inch or so?

[Mark Gunter]

Ray, I don't think that's a harmonic suppressor, but a string guide intended to provide add'l downward tension against the bridge. Unlike Weber's "wood nymph", it's probably screwed right into the top. Some older (mostly Italian?) mandolin builders did that. Sort of like Fender does at the headstock end of their guitars, if only for some strings. Or I'm wrong!

Thanks for this Ed, "Some older (mostly Italian?) mandolin builders did that." That was the question that popped into my mind on seeing this image, because it seemed obvious that the function of that block was to increase break angle of the strings. It would have to be screwed into the top, look at the string angle. So, this was common among some of those luthiers? I'm a babe in the woods here, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised that I've never seen this. It seems a clever, if inelegant, solution to providing a better break angle without using a canted top.

[Jim Garber]

This is a tough one. It looks like it is decently made and might have some Italian-oid features but rarely are the soundholes on Italian instuments circular, usually more oval. Also the necks are usually joined near the headstock, esp those made in Naples. Those tuner buttons do look like bone but they seem to me to be from the turn of the last century to my eyes.

I can't tell but it does look like there is no obvious cant/fold in the top. Can the OP verify that?

[vic-victor]

Quite possibly Catania-made instrument that has been recently restored.

[Charles E.]

It looks like there is a label on the back, visible through the sound hole. Perhaps the OP could give us details on that.

[Jim Garber]

The more I think about it, the more I lean toward Portugal or perhaps even Brazil. Modern bandolims have very wide bodies but perhaps those made at the turn of the last century might be shaped like the OP's. I have one with a Casa Oliveira store label on the back of the headstock. but it could have been made for them in Portugal (or Brazil) and the shape of it is similar (tho not exact ) to the OP's. See below.

[Graham McDonald]

The mandolin in the middle is a very similar instrument from Markneukirchen. From an undated catalogue of Gebruder Schuster, but the listing of the aluminium bodied mandolin at the bottom of the page and the prices I suspect 1920s or perhaps even pre-1914.

[Tarquin Biscuitbox]

Wow! Thanks to everyone for such a great response - this has been really helpful.
The label inside looks like it may have been made by a previous owner who wanted to put their initials on it.

[Martin Jonas]

I'm with Graham: I think it's German, about 1900s to 1920s, most likely from Markneukirchen. These generally don't have full maker's labels and often have none at all because they were sold by the actual maker to wholesalers who would then distribute it to music shops to sell under their own name. There were hundreds of craft makers in that town, but most remain anonymous and cannot be linked to the instruments they made.

The body shape and soundhole rosette are very similar to the wildly-popular Boehm waldzithers of the same age. Boehm also made mandolins under the brand name "Waldoline", but those had prominent labels and also the Portuguese-style headstock tuners. Yours isn't a Boehm, but I think it's infiuenced by their design.

I also think that this has been cleaned up and possibly refinished more recently. Those screws on the string downholder look wrong and modern, and I think they're a replacement.

Martin

[Phil Goodson]

..... whereas these are the more modern "worm under" ('30s and later?), where the leverage of string tension tends to force the gears together.

.....

Just a momentary aside: isn't the 'worm' the spiral thing above the gear, and aren't these "worm over" (which indeed are the more modern.)?