Baggs Radius

[junglejem]

Just did a gig yesterday with a microphone (SM57) on the mandolin. The sound was fine, but I'm wondering if a mic might be more trouble than its worth. I haven't totally foreclosed on that idea, but I'm exploring options.

Anyone out there using (or have used) the LR Baggs Radius pickup? Any words of praise, or caveats? Is a preamp essential with the Baggs (ie, the Venue DI or something like it)?

[Polecat]

Hi junglejem,
You might want to read This thread.
As the Baggs Radius is a high-impedance transducer, you can't just plug it into the mic input of a mixer and expect it to perform well; a buffer is necessary, and in practice that usually means a preamp. For a little more than just the Baggs Radius (without the buffer) you can get an AKG c411 contact microphone which is a plug-and-play unit that also (in my opinion) sounds very good. Once you add the cost of a preamp, the AKG is a better deal in my eyes (or ears). I haven't used the Baggs Radius for performance, but having tested one and returned it as not being better than the AKG c411 I use, that's what I would recommend.

[JeffD]

I think it depends on how often you play how. I play acoustically at jams once or twice a week, and have to be amplified maybe two or three times a year. So for me the microphone is the perfect option. I have an SM57, but usually someone else is setting up the sound system and provides the microphone and mic stand and it all works out. So really, I don't need to do anything.

If I needed to be amplified more often I might try something else, but right now I don't think on board pick up provides much advantage to me.

[Nashville]

I tried using the SM57 on my mandolin and found it very unsatisfactory. Instead used an AKG small diaphragm condenser that was much better. However I am planning on going with the Baggs soon, but haven't used one personally.

https://youtu.be/WVXTRrx6UZo

https://youtu.be/x1v05llOwBk

[kudzugypsy]

the route you take depends on:
a) how loud you need to be
b) how loud the stage volume is

from my experience, most of the contact mics sound...like contact mics.
i got a countryman isomax used for $75 and it does exactly what i want - but i am not playing against the volume from drums and electric guitars either.

[texaspaul]

I use the Radius but use the Para DI EQ along with it the group I played with played a variety of music from Western Swing, Gospel Grass to 60's Rock. The leader did not like the idea of using mic son instruments so the LR Baggs combo worked great. Not as pure a sound as the Shure mic but good in a group with drums, electric guitar and keyboards.

[almeriastrings]

I had a Radius - really did not like it at all. I now use an AKG C411 for those times when I have to rely on a transducer vs. a microphone, and in my opinion, the AKG is much more natural sounding. You can actually hear a sample of that Radius here.

Post #13 in this thread.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...008-Amazon-pup

[UsuallyPickin]

Optimally you need to prepare yourself for using both a quality mic and a transducer. When a mic will work ie . in a not loud environment nothing sounds better . I use an AKG C 1000S when I can. SM 57's are good mics ... very tough and produce good tone. When I cannot I use a mic I use an internally mounted Barcus Berry transducer with a tube driven preamp. It produces close to a natural unamplified tone, and is close to as clear a quality as a mic ......
R/

[mandroid]

another tout for the other low impedance pickup, Shertler.. its Mic Cartridge is Dynamic..

Polecats item: AKG it's condenser type Signal source , so needs a bit of input power..
cable has a voltage regulator in the plug,using power that comes off a Mixer channel.

Both are easy workarounds like other microphones ..
Dynamic can use a matching transformer then plug into guitar amp inputs,

Flautist friend 's set: Shure Mic > match transformer > , Fender tube amp..

Piezo + preamp can run guitar amps too.

[roysboy]

I use the Baggs Radius ...But you'll need a pre-amp and by the time you buy both you're looking at the best part of 300 bucks . It sounds quite good but even the small hollow body of the mandolin can Create some feedback hurdles without an eq .

[almeriastrings]

This can be summarised as follows.

1. No pickup will give you the true acoustic sound of the instrument, but some are closer than others.
2. Most (not all) pickups will require a separate high impedance input preamp. This does indeed bump up the final cost quite a bit. There are some transducers (Shertler DYN and AKG C411 that are quite happy straight into a standard microphone XLR input. The C411 requires phantom power, the Shertler does not).
3. There is surprisingly little - if any - sometimes, between dirt cheap transducers and rather more expensive ones based on the same technology (i.e., piezo elements).
4. The main reason for using a pickup is to get more volume before feedback, and in very loud stage environments (or lousy acoustics) that may be your only viable option, but with careful selection and use, you should be able to achieve pretty adequate levels from a microphone. The microphone will sound more natural than a transducer.... at least, every one I have ever used has and I've used a lot.... consider a clip on mic (e.g., AT PRO35/ATM350/DPA4099). These can be very effective indeed if you prefer to avoid a stand-mounted microphone, and integrate well with wireless systems too.

[Polecat]

Almeria has summed it up well, but I would like to add a couple of points:

A microphone will also not reproduce the "true" sound of an instrument (given that there is a "true" sound - I would recommend anyone who has not tried it to ask someone else to play their mandolin and then walk around whilst listening to it - the changes in timbre and volume are quite surprising). This does not particularly matter, as the aim of amplification is to produce a pleasing sound - as volume increases this means (in my opinion) subtly reducing the higher mids in the case of a mandolin (or violin) to avoid lobotomizing the audience. I'm sure there are cafe members much better versed in this than me. Depending on the quality of the microphone, sound equipment and the skill of the sound man, a microphone can sound "truer" than a transducer. What sounds "better" is a matter of taste.

As a fairly energetic performer, I find a fixed microphone on a stand very challenging - I am no longer able to "move as the spirit moves me" which for me is an important part of performing. Almeria has mentioned clip-on mics, which I have tried, but have never found a placement for the mic which both sounds good and is sufficiently out of the way that I don't hit it with my right hand (I use exclusively oval-holes, which may be significant).

In the end, there is no right or wrong, it is important that one finds a compromise one is happy with both aesthetically and practically. And it always will be a compromise - searching for perfection in this area is a great way to waste a lot of time and money.

[mandroid]

Yea, a contact soundboard fitted transducer hears what it's attached to ..


the acoustic sound is the air, sound waves, striking your eardrums

[MysTiK PiKn]

Yea, a contact soundboard fitted transducer hears what it's attached to ..


the acoustic sound is the air, sound waves, striking your eardrums

Trying to sort the tools and the language - both - at the same time.
OK so I get it - there's piezo transducers - and I tend to agree they all sound like piezo whatevers = piezo.
But
I am confused with the AKG c411 being described as CONTACT mic. - That, to me says that pick noise, and contact with the mando body will be picked up, makes sense - but also it's called a mic - which, I think, is saying that it's like any/all mics, and picks up pure sound from the mando, and the environment, etc.
This sounds like I'm being repetitive to what's been said. My question - barring physical contact w mando body, is the c411 a definite microphone, and NOT a piezo type unit, and is it therefore similar, in principle, to a STAND mounted mic?? I get that it's a tiny mic, and it is in direct contact w mando. I just want to make sure I have the right impression. Or simply - are we simply dealing with a tiny microphone. (long story, short version) YES or NO.??

Me, I am only interested in pure sound, I know any mic will add some colour, as will any amp. And I get Polecat's interest in being able to move around.

Great discussion in this thread. thx.

[almeriastrings]

My question - barring physical contact w mando body, is the c411 a definite microphone, and NOT a piezo type unit, and is it therefore similar, in principle, to a STAND mounted mic?? I get that it's a tiny mic, and it is in direct contact w mando. I just want to make sure I have the right impression. Or simply - are we simply dealing with a tiny microphone. (long story, short version) YES or NO.??

It is a contact transducer rather than a microphone, which is (depending on exactly which definition you prefer) an atmospheric pressure transducer which converts sound waves into electrical energy. In this case, the C411 uses an electret condenser element not a piezo electric element, so sounds quite different. The Shertler DYN is similar, except it uses a moving coil (dynamic) element.

[MysTiK PiKn]

It is a contact transducer rather than a microphone, which is (depending on exactly which definition you prefer) an atmospheric pressure transducer which converts sound waves into electrical energy. In this case, the C411 uses an electret condenser element not a piezo electric element, so sounds quite different. The Shertler DYN is similar, except it uses a moving coil (dynamic) element.

= an atmospheric pressure transducer which converts sound waves into electrical energy. =
Ok. To me, that describes a microphone - except that "transducer" word got in the way again.
Is this about receiving vibes from tonewood? Or direct sound, as in, Could I sing through it? Both maybe?

= and, also to me, "electret condenser element" pretty much describes a small diaphram condensor mic.
That "electret" word. I've heard you use that elsewhere. That's about describing the type of "condensor"??
Perhaps my problem is that I don't know what a 'condensor' is. Oh, I see - it's about the type of element it uses. Right?


I know I'm wrong on both counts - kinda like "close, but no cigar".

I have seen other socalled "pickups" that are clip on mics, mounted outside on Fstyles, or inside on ovals, or guitars.
So, I think this AKG c411 is pretty similar - but you seem to be saying something else. Is it similar? I think I need to do more research on my own. I am really amazed by how much you obviously know about these, and other, devices.

I am looking for (microphone) sound. I already have a piezo transducer in my guitar, and it's just a noise maker - like playing a canoe.

The c411 seems very microphonish to me in my limited experience. I thought this might be the ideal thing.

I just reread your response (again) - key word = "element". I don't truly know what "element" means. That's likely the essence of the beast.
I think I need to go away and read quietly to myself; and then ask questions. The terminology gets in the way. Altho when I read it 10 times, it starts to speak to me. Thanks for attempting communication with me.

[almeriastrings]

Transducer = Anything that converts one form of energy into another, i.e, sound waves or vibrations into electrical impulses. So, a microphone is also a transducer, as is a hydrophone (underwater microphone).

Element = This is the 'active' part that actually does the job. The internal, functional bit as opposed to how it is packaged or attached. There are many kinds, but piezo, dynamic and condenser are by far the most common.

The AKG C411 takes soundboard vibrations and converts (that's the 'trans' part) into an electronic signal that is then sent to the PA system. It will not pick up 'acoustic' sounds carried 'in the air'. In this, it is similar to other contact transducers. However, it does not sound like a piezo transducer - it is a lot smoother and has no discernible 'quack' or harshness. It also does not require a high impedance preamp, but can be treated just like a condenser microphone (because the functional element is essentially the same as used in condenser microphones).

As to how all these options sound, and what you prefer, the only way to know for sure is to try to get to hear them.

As far as pickups/transducers go, for myself I am satisfied with the C411's, though I certainly prefer a microphone where possible. I have one in my Ellis, and another in Bill Clifton's old Martin D-35. One advantage is that they are easily removable without modification, a big factor on vintage or valuable instruments. The only proviso is that you need an input that provides +48v phantom power. Actually, you can do a custom wiring job and run them from other sources, but this does get more complicated and in most cases, you won't need to.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Thanks for a very generous explanation. Much appreciated. It almost makes sense now. I haven't heard it; but I have a feel for it. The easily removable is interesting also. Details still need to be absorbed; but your recommendation is noted and appreciated. It almost sounds like I almost guessed right almost.

The attractive part of all this is the word "condensor". = "electret condenser element" That has a nice ring to it. I'm still going to do some research. I find I am bookmarking a lot of "mic" stuff; largely from reading your other (previous) posts elsewhere.

Thanks again.

[junglejem]

Well, we'll give it a shot. I purchased a Radius and a Venue D.I., and they will arrive this week, before my Saturday gig. I noticed Sarah Hull was going from the Radius into the Venue in the Baggs video. Obviously they are selling product, but I thought the sound was fantastic. I don't know if she even uses the Baggs stuff live. I suspect not. But there are features of the Venue that are attractive to me...a built in tuner/mute switch, and a boost switch for solos. The ability to use 1/4" plug cable is nice, too. I owned the Schertler Dyn M, and thought it sounded fine with some time spent on EQ, but that delicate little cable on stage always made me nervous. I guess we'll know more this time Sunday! Thanks for all the responses. Always interesting to get others' opinions, preferences.