How much of it is muscle memory?

[zedmando]

So--less than a week with the new mandolin--I realize too soon to be a virtuoso-although that was never the goal--But, as I adapt to the strings being upside down from what I'me used to on guitar (So even if I flip stuff in my head, the strings also go reverse pitch wise), I find I'm learning more my shape & position than actually learning the notes--although I'd like to learn both eventually.

But any ideas on how much of the learning is muscle memory?

I have some chords & stuff down--but some of the songs I've tried just sound wrong.

I think the stuff that sound the best is stuff I came up with--which is something I want to do, and develop some of those ideas into actual songs.

Muscle memory takes over with guitar and bass, but that took a while, hopefully the muscle memory for mandolin isn't too different than it is for guitar...
Maybe just smaller?

Any thoughts to my rambling?

[Bertram Henze]

While playing, it's all muscle memory (the correct term is procedural memory). Only in rationalizing afterwards (or before) what it is you're doing and why it works (or not) you use its counterpart: declarative memory. Declarative memory is good for analysis and explanation, but it's too slow for helping in action.
So, when you're playing the mandolin and it sounds good - that's 100% procedural memory at work.

[John Kelly]

Bertram, you have such a way with words! Seriously, that is a very succinct account of how we learn the fingering of an instrument. You only really know a tune when you can play it in the "muscle-memory" mode, playing without thinking about where your fingers are going. I play a lot from the music and very many of those tunes do not get stored in my memory, especially those I only play a few times.
Think of how, in your guitar playing, you can have your fingers already taking up a chord shape before they are near the fingerboard - they are remembering the shape and are forming it as you place them down.
One difference with mandolin and guitar at the start is the fact that you are going from playing the finger-per-fret style of the guitar to the two-frets-per-finger the mandolin uses with its much shorter scale length.

[Bertram Henze]

Thanks John, but I just summarized what Sian Beilock wrote in her book "Choke" (choke is what happens when you try to use the wrong memory for something it is neither trained nor cut out for in a stress situation). I do recommend that book to anybody with stage fright, for instance.

[Beanzy]

Yep, even when sight reading it's done like that. You recall the template that suits the style to"get in the zone" then you apply the notes and timing automatically as you read. When you play it next time you apply all those alterations you thought of as you went. I think this is why subsequent runs through improve, then plateau until you really spend time on phrases you need to investigate deeper. Once done those get added to your store of pre-learned information. It's also where the danger of sounding samey or clichéd comes from; you have to work at looking at things with fresh eyes and hearing them with new ears.

[Nashville]

Muscle memory is a big part of it just like on guitar. So it means the advantage is in having the mandolin in your hands as many hours a day as you can provide. The best players are usually the ones that are most passionate about their instrument and spend a lot of time playing. It's really are very simple equation. Of course there are other factors like brain, fingers and quality of instrument that factor in, but nothing can surpass importance of time spent with fingers on fingerboard.

What helps the most with developing the muscles memory is just plain learning tunes on the mandolin. Celtic, old time, fiddle, bluegrass, swing, classical, whatever; just learn as many tunes as you can. It will all naturally fall into place. There's a ton of resources for learning available today, but only you can provide the time devoted to playing and actually developing that muscle memory.

[fatt-dad]

how much of your speaking voice is muscle memory. . . ?

I agree to the OP, the answer is 100%

f-d

[bratsche]

Growing familiarity with what you're playing, as well as with the instrument you're playing it on, breeds an ever-increasing economy of motion in the fine motor control required to play it. IOW, the better you know it, the less you're flailing about, and the more you can get out of your own way to actually make music. It all takes place in the brain, though, as the muscles themselves have no memory.

bratsche

[Bertram Henze]

It all takes place in the brain, though, as the muscles themselves have no memory

There is a view useful for neurologists and another for musicians. If it helps the musician to imagine the music to be inside his hands, who am I to discourage that. I prefer to call it procedural memory, but mostly because it describes a function rather than hardware.

[SincereCorgi]

Yeah, it's all muscle memory. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by trying to think of it as an upside-down guitar. The chord shapes don't work the same way and the fingering for melody is very different. Just relax and practice with discipline and let it come; 'short cuts' with music almost never work.

I heard that somebody at a workshop asked Norman Blake how to get as good as he was on guitar, and he responded something like: "Well, home much time are you willing to spend behind the box?"

[bratsche]

There is a view useful for neurologists and another for musicians. If it helps the musician to imagine the music to be inside his hands, who am I to discourage that. I prefer to call it procedural memory, but mostly because it describes a function rather than hardware.

Oh, I agree completely with all of that! I was just pointing out a technicality. Anything that helps the musician is fine, and most things we come up with are mental tricks of one sort or another, aren't they?

bratsche

[Chuck Hooper]

as a "learning" player i play as much as i can.i think there was a segment in "mandolins for idiots" about leaving the mandolin out for easy access,i guess the theory being that if it's out you'll play it more.sort of like in field of dreams ..."if you build they will come..." i have 2 mandolins:one downstairs/one upstairs...damned if it isn't true.i find myself playing more "chunks" of music,chord transitions,strumming drills,etc..i have a lesson every saturday at 10am since starting back in october.my learning curve would make pedro martinez envious!my index finger callous is getting nice and thick/middle finger too...."play on mcduff and damned be he who first cries hold..enough"!! w/apologies to the Bard.

[Mandoplumb]

I have a slightly different slant on this issue. I think procedural memory would be knowing without thinking that the next note is one step higher. For instance I have trouble with a dulcimer because I think the next note is 2 frets higher (1 whole step) so I note 2 frets higher ( on a dulcimer that is 2 whole steps). What I consider muscle memory is when the phrase goes so fast I have to practice slow and get that in my fingers then gradually build speed till I can play it without thinking. I know what you mean about the instruments being reversed, I started on mandolin then learned guitar and I thought of it as being backwards.

[rubydubyr]

Growing familiarity with what you're playing, as well as with the instrument you're playing it on, breeds an ever-increasing economy of motion in the fine motor control required to play it. IOW, the better you know it, the less you're flailing about, and the more you can get out of your own way to actually make music. It all takes place in the brain, though, as the muscles themselves have no memory.

bratsche

so very true bratsche, and well said!

[mandocrucian]

If you play lead guitar, starting putting all your guitar stuff, note-for-note, onto the mandolin. That stuff is already in your head (if you can't hum it, then it's only in rote finger memory).

Lokt at this way..... the melody of a song doesn't change because you learn a second or third verse. Learning something you already know, on another instrument, is like your hands learning another/different verse. Do enough of this, and you mind will start to spontaneously translate the finger patterns from guitar onto the mandolin neck. Also your fingers are being programmed to follow your ear, not be independent of it.

Hum/sing/etc. what you play, which links the audio/aural brain circuits with the muscular ones controlling the fingers. The fingers should follow the EAR (mental ear) (even if you are a sightreader), not the other way around.

Niles H

[kjcole]

Motor actions using (procedural) memory can blend automatic (less conscious) control with cognitive control (more conscious) in varying degrees depending on task, skill level, etc. Rapid sequential actions tend to be acquired and used in bigger and bigger automatic chunks (to a point), and I think that's what musicians and others tend to call 'muscle memory.' While learning there's first a lot of conscious processing, and the process of making those actions truly automatic (so they require little attention and are not affected by simultaneous tasks) can take years. so the more skilled you become means you get to attend to higher, and higher level features of making music.

[JeffD]

Hum/sing/etc. what you play, which links the audio/aural brain circuits with the muscular ones controlling the fingers. The fingers should follow the EAR (mental ear) (even if you are a sightreader), not the other way around.

In my own experience this is gigantic!

[zedmando]

Yeah, it's all muscle memory. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by trying to think of it as an upside-down guitar. The chord shapes don't work the same way and the fingering for melody is very different. Just relax and practice with discipline and let it come; 'short cuts' with music almost never work.

I gave up on thinking of it guitar upside down pretty quickly--as the strings may be upside down--but the pitch changes are backwards as well--so the A is higher than the low E of a guitar, but lower on the mandolin--so it sounds weird to just transpose.
I'm not looking for shortcuts--and I've only had it for a week, so I know I still have some learning to do, and nam not expecting to know it all right away.
When I bought a fretless bass last year I already knew how to play bass (bass guitar), but had to learn the fretless part & I spent some time practicing the fretless technique before playing in front of people-I probably could have done it sooner, but I wanted to make sure. Mandolin will probably take a bit longer.
I did read some stuff about people who tune their mandolins the same as the highest four strings on a guitar (DGBE), but I figure I bought a mandolin, not a tiny guitar, so I'll stick with the mando tuning.

If you play lead guitar, starting putting all your guitar stuff, note-for-note, onto the mandolin. That stuff is already in your head (if you can't hum it, then it's only in rote finger memory).

Lokt at this way..... the melody of a song doesn't change because you learn a second or third verse. Learning something you already know, on another instrument, is like your hands learning another/different verse. Do enough of this, and you mind will start to spontaneously translate the finger patterns from guitar onto the mandolin neck. Also your fingers are being programmed to follow your ear, not be independent of it.

Hum/sing/etc. what you play, which links the audio/aural brain circuits with the muscular ones controlling the fingers. The fingers should follow the EAR (mental ear) (even if you are a sightreader), not the other way around.

Cool, good advice-at least it makes sense to me.
I play rhythm guitar more than lead--although I noodle around a lot when I play on my own.
Some of that noodling has been done on mandolin, but I'm getting used to it and to some chord forms.
An as I do on guitar & bass, I like coming up with my own ideas--and I will do definitely be doing that on the mandolin. (And already have--at least the start of songs)

Thanks to all of you for the advice--one of the reasons I joined here.
I'll keep these things in mind as I practice. (Done some every day since except one day I was sick & in pain and I slept most of the day)--I will be playing bass tomorrow though--because I've been asked to (Not a gig though) and I enjoy it, but eventually I'll be playing mandolin for friends & family and stuff like that.
And I am thinking of trying a few lessons (or more), but want to be careful how I do that as well.

Again thanks.

[Bertram Henze]

I did read some stuff about people who tune their mandolins the same as the highest four strings on a guitar (DGBE), but I figure I bought a mandolin, not a tiny guitar, so I'll stick with the mando tuning.

Good on you. I like things that really are what they look like, and I approve of that attitude

[zedmando]

Good on you. I like things that really are what they look like, and I approve of that attitude

Well to be fair, I did buy a Mandobird--that kind of looks like a mini guitar--but it's a solidbody electric mandolin.
So I do want to learn it as a mandolin--although I'm not against experimenting with it either, later on--learn the rules before I break them, basically.

Thanks.

[EdHanrahan]

... find I'm learning more my shape & position than actually learning the notes--although I'd like to learn both eventually.

Surprise! You're already half way to reading the notes, because the mando's E and D strings are read & played identical to guitar! (Plus, they sound at the correct pitch; many are unaware that guitar sounds an octave lower than written).

And the G and A strings have the notes at the same frets as on guitar's G and A strings (just in different octaves), so you're actually more than half-way there.

Hint: Don't let the differences, and that sometimes-silly envisioning of the strings as "backward", prevent you from seeing the forest for the trees, or the notes for the fretboard.

[metrognome]

I think the stuff that sound the best is stuff I came up with--which is something I want to do, and develop some of those ideas into actual songs.

This is part of the beauty of the mandolin to me. Chords played on the mandolin speak with a different voice altogether than on guitar. I've found this to be a great benefit for songwriting.

[jshane]

... The fingers should follow the EAR (mental ear) (even if you are a sightreader), not the other way around.

Niles H

I've been trying to figure how to state this concept forvever, and I don't think it can be said more clearly. Thanks, Niles.

[zedmando]

This is part of the beauty of the mandolin to me. Chords played on the mandolin speak with a different voice altogether than on guitar. I've found this to be a great benefit for songwriting.

That's one of the reasons I like trying to come up with songs on different instruments--guitar, bass or keyboard (Although that would only be simple ideas for me & not often, as I don't own a keyboard) and now mandolin.

[metrognome]

I bet your mando sounds great!