What Is Your Ultimate Goal? Improv Mastery?

[JeffD]

"Mastery" is a relative term (because it something always just out-of-reach).

If you start believing the word applies to yourself, you've started buying your own "publicity."

True, very true.

[bratsche]

No formal "goals" here, just the desire to keep enjoying what I play, and hopefully seeing improvement in line with the amount of time I keep playing.

Improvisation isn't even on my radar screen, though it's likely a good skill to learn. Playing what you hear in your head presupposes that you hear something of an interesting and original nature that's actually worth playing. What I hear in my head has mostly already been composed. The remainder which has not been has not been for good reason, in that it's not even worth subjecting the time/space continuum to, even if my cats would be the only ones to listen. (Unfortunately, that can also be said about much of what has been composed, as well.) In any case, I'd rather spend what time I have left only using my instruments to 'sing' what I find to be the best music already existent.

bratsche

[JeffD]

Playing what you hear in your head presupposes that you hear something of an interesting and original nature that's actually worth playing. What I hear in my head has mostly already been composed.

Beat me to it once again.

I could add, as I have said elsewhere, that expressing myself is a similarly limited endeavor. I rather try and express the music and what is in it; much more interesting.

[catmandu2]

... expressing myself is a similarly limited endeavor. I rather try and express the music....

is there an essential difference?--among these..

[catmandu2]

.. Playing what you hear in your head presupposes that you hear something of an interesting and original nature that's actually worth playing.

Not necessarily, I believe. You can make make music--and even interesting and [[/I][/I] authentic sounds--from exercises, technical material, raw material, sound...

[JeffD]

is there an essential difference?--among these..

Not to derail the thread because this is a topic well worth exploring in another thread, but yes I see them as very different. I try to play very expressively. But my intent is to express what is in the tune, what the tune means and says, as best I can. What I may think and feel, about the tune, or about anything really, is, ancillary, and if it gets into my playing it is by mistake.

There is some overlap, but the essential difference is my intent. Playing music for me is not about sharing myself with an audience, or anyone listening, it is about sharing and playing the music and having the audience love what I am playing as much as I do.

Folks who write songs and music are sharing from inside themselves, and I love that they do that. Its not me. If I play their song, I hope to do my best expressing what they have put into the tune.

[jshane]

Playing what you hear in your head presupposes that you hear something of an interesting and original nature that's actually worth playing.

Well, when I say my goal is to play the music I hear in my head, I don't mean to limit it to original music. If I sit down with my mandolin and feel like playing "Poor Boy's Delight", or Bell Bottom Blues", or even "Red Haired Boy", I'd like to be able to DO it, given that I can hear the song in my head-- not just melody, but chords as well. The concept isn't limited to original improvisation.

[bratsche]

My comment was in reference to improv, but I can certainly identify/agree with that, jshane!

While your examples sound like names of fiddle tunes I've seen in my fiddle tune book that I never look at anymore, by the same token, I would love to be able to play more soloistic renderings of familiar tunes, such as Christmas carols or the like, on the fly. I have no problem playing those sorts of melodies when I hear them in my head, but in order to play the melody simultaneously accompanied with chords, I must first painstakingly work it out, and then commit it to memory. I suppose I'd make a goal of learning to do that kind of thing on the fly, but I don't really know any easy way to accomplish it. To me, that's a whole lot of daunting multi-tasking going on. But when I work it out and commit it to memory, playing it then has become just a single task, which I'm much better at doing.

bratsche

[catmandu2]

... I suppose I'd make a goal of learning to do that kind of thing on the fly, but I don't really know any easy way to accomplish it. To me, that's a whole lot of daunting multi-tasking going on. But when I work it out and commit it to memory, playing it then has become just a single task, which I'm much better at doing.

I think it's an approach and an orientation--to music, to playing, etc. Perhaps begin working more with chord scales and relationships--assimilating them as you will/have with single-note scalar conception. Start small--build up

[catmandu2]

Not to derail the thread because this is a topic well worth exploring in another thread, but yes I see them as very different. I try to play very expressively. But my intent is to express what is in the tune, what the tune means and says, as best I can. What I may think and feel, about the tune, or about anything really, is, ancillary, and if it gets into my playing it is by mistake.

There is some overlap, but the essential difference is my intent. Playing music for me is not about sharing myself with an audience, or anyone listening, it is about sharing and playing the music and having the audience love what I am playing as much as I do.

Folks who write songs and music are sharing from inside themselves, and I love that they do that. Its not me. If I play their song, I hope to do my best expressing what they have put into the tune.

It all comes from within. I appreciate what you're saying though.

[Hany Hayek]

I only want to play Bach Chaconne, Partita # 2. Am I aiming too high

[JeffD]

Thinking about this over some great coffee I had an idea that perhaps "playing the music in my head" could mean something I can get a handle on. Which is "playing the music in front of me so as to sound as good as it sounds in my head before I play it", which I think is a very good goal.

[bratsche]

I only want to play Bach Chaconne, Partita # 2. Am I aiming too high

If that's what you want, then go for it! Why not? I am. It seems like another lifetime when I first formally studied it (40 yrs ago, as a violin student). But that amazing work has followed and haunted my footsteps ever since. It was a large part of what inspired me to take up plucked instruments, in fact. Been practicing the Chaconne for about 3 years now on mandola (after cutting my teeth on lots of easier Bach movements), and it has probably been the best thing I could've been doing for my right hand technical development. It's one of the most inspiring, inspired and all-around wonderful pieces ever written, IMO. Difficult, yes, but definitely worth it.

bratsche

[jshane]

. Which is "playing the music in front of me so as to sound as good as it sounds in my head before I play it", which I think is a very good goal.

I think this is pretty much what I am after, too---

Consider this--

For me, the "music in front of me" is simply a bunch of black likes on white paper, until those abstract symbols create an "intended sound" in my head. At that point, "the music in front of me" is exactly synonymous with "the music in my head".

I don't care HOW the music in my head GETS there (from written musical notation of any kind, from internal inspiration, from a friend teaching me a tune, from listening to recorded music, etc) ---- I just feel that my goal is to be able to transform that INTERNAL music into real sounds emanating from my mandolin.

Personally, I have found (and continue to find) that this is difficult to START to do because there really isnt any other way to do it other than to start doing it. But, once started, the process seems to get more "hard-wired", if not exactly "easier" -- kind of like language. I suppose that "fluency" in this case would be when the proper sounds are made without conscious intent -- kind of like speaking in one's native language.

Suffice it to say that I have not arrived at this fluency..... more's the pity. But I still feel that this is my "Ultimate Goal".

[fatt-dad]

therapy, fun, dynamic range, fewer clams, even tempo, broader repetoir (sp), fellowship, etc. Stuff like that.

Oh and maybe buy a few more mandolins and try out a few different sets of strings?

f-d

[bart mcneil]

deleted by author

[JeffD]

. I suppose that "fluency" in this case would be when the proper sounds are made without conscious intent -- kind of like speaking in one's native language..

Here is something fun I do that, I think, moves me in the proper direction. I got the idea, if I remember right, from Niles H. In any event it sounds like something he would advocate.

Which is, I sing along with my playing.

Not all the time, not even most of the time, but when I am working on something or practice something. I just sing along. I don't pay attention to what is coming first, the voice or the mandolin, I just do the two together. And I stamp my feet. Not foot tapping, foot stamping. (Of course in public I am silent and more refined.)

I am a horrible singer, and I am no Glenn Gould believe me, but the exercise seems to glue things together in my head - the note and the tone, the tune and the tune, beat for beat. I am not sure actually. But its fun and helps me along. Somehow this makes music something my whole body does, not just my left and right hands.

Did I mention its fun?

[jshane]

Did I mention its fun?

I try and sing along, too. It IS fun.

[Nashville]

I have no ultimate goal. I just really like playing the mandolin. I've always loved it, but first really got hooked on 'em when I heard Sam Bush play one back in the 70s. In fact I've told several friends, "I don't know why I'm learning mandolin. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it or what I'm gonna end up playing".

I have no aspiration to play bluegrass or jazz or classical or rock. Yet I've been going the tried 'n true path of learning old fiddle tunes and bluegrass tunes and a touch of blues, in order to develop some technique and chops. And when I just sit down and jam on mandolin there are all kinds of interesting (to me) rhythms and melodies that pop out, unrelated to anything I've been practicing.

It just feels good playing mandolin. That's why I do it. Total self gratification.

[Will Patton]

bet many of you have seen the Pablo Casals quote - when asked, at the age of 90, why he's still practicing 6 hrs. a day, sez: - Well, I think I'm getting somewhere -
Our goals might keep leapfrogging over our accomplishments.
As far as singing along with your improv, I've always thought it's one of the best ways to engage more of the brain into what you're playing, especially the emotional component.
Great thread.....

[Ganondorf]

I'd like to be able to perform for other people at festivals or public evens, or even just for family and friends, and to be competent enough to jump in with other musicians at sessions.

[KEB]

About a year ago, I answered a simliar question this way.

I'd just like to be sitting across from a circle at a jam with someone I respect, and have that person give me a smile and a nod after I take a particularly good break.

This last year, I got something similar, but not quite there yet-- I did the Delfest Academy and Ronnie McCoury complemented my chop, and said "you've got it" when we were doing tremolo-- that's pretty damn cool and some progress toward that goal.

[David L]

Over the years my musical goals have changed. One of my earlier goals which I feel that I have attained is erasing the line between "classical" and "popular" music. Although differentiating genres can be fun, it's really all just music! I try to approach Bach minuets the same as something by Strength in Numbers.

My current goal is to erase the line (at least aurally) between improvising and not improvising. This is a harder task, for sure. I try to make composed music sound as if I'm improvising, and improvised music sound like I've worked it out ahead of time. This is obviously an on-going project.

[Joel Glassman]

My goal is to be watching how melody interacts with chords, and try to define it as much as possible. Arpeggio tones are a framework on the instrument which changes as the chords change. I try to hum a drone of changing 3rds or 7ths [sometimes moving to root or 5ths]-- a "guide-tone" line. How does the melody move along the line & interact or approach the arpeggio tones? Absorbing this seems to be a key for improvising. When soloing it all becomes intuitive and subconscious, but the memories of the pathways are there. The hardest thing is to keep the melody as a constant reference...

[9lbShellhamer]

Very cool answer Joel. I like the short term goal merging into the long run goal. I feel like your answer is circular and all inclusive. I feel like understanding the framework with which chords and melody interrelate would yield an incredible understanding of "music" as a whole.

I also really like the answers about the goal being to simply have fun. At first I thought that simply having fun meant not progressing because personally while playing guitar for the last decade I never really progressed because I just strummed chords...however Mandolin has been completely different, I've been working hard but it's been a blast!!! Particularly with recording tunes...It's really been a blast. I wake up wanting to practice and play and I've been able to memorize a lot of fiddle tunes finally.

I feel like I'm gaining a broader knowledge of timing and rhythm through learning these fiddle tunes, because I'm learning different ending and licks for the A and B parts. It's cool to see how flatted thirds, and sevenths can change the tune around in the b part and add some color. Adding in some slides and using tasteful alterations in eight or sixteenth notes has been cool to as I know I have to wrap it up before the next bar. Basically, what I'm saying is that playing different variation of the same tune has been really helpful AND fun.

Life is good in mandolin world.