How Many LOAR Mandos Do You Think are Stil Out There??

[f5joe]

Does that include Loar banjos?

[Jeff Mando]

A couple more thoughts. As I stated, I have spent a good part of my life hunting down instruments, and feel I have done as well as most people. There are people, however, who spent ALL of their time looking for Loars, specifically. Just like someone would look for lost Civil War gold--they know it is there-they know basically where it is, but in 150 years they still haven't found it. BUT, remember King Tut's tomb--every other King's tomb was found and looted years before, but somehow they missed Tut's! And, what a find it was!

I know a little about record collecting. Once in a while I find a batch that was stored for years in a radio station where the public would not have access to it. You can get some finds, that way. Again OTOH, collectors have taken collecting to extremes--I know a collector who spent his vacation in a small town where a certain band was from who made a rare record in the 50's--I'm guessing the value would be $5000+ probably a lot more--anyway in hopes of finding one he knocked on every door in the town hoping someone had one or knew a band member or had a lead--he didn't find one, either! That's called rare. I would go out on a limb and say somebody has probably put a similar amount of time and effort into locating a Loar. Just my opinion, and I do want them to succeed.

[Ken Waltham]

I have spent a bit of time doing that.. Never found one as such, but, have had several "unknown Loars" in my time, probably as a result of me looking, and then, becoming known as a person who would like one. I guess the OP was wondering how many left that are unknown?
I currently have a couple of EXF condition F5's that were both unknown, and, ironically, both were acquired by their families as a result of a debt being paid for services rendered. The party owing had no money, and in both cases paid with a mandolin. However, in both cases, the receiving man did not play, and put the F5 under the bed. This resulted in both F5's being in extraordinary condition.
The Carter Loar, which I bought from the original family, was literally an "under the bed"acquisition, and had not been played in decades.
I have found a couple of 30's F5's that were in amazing condition, from their original homes. Guitars...tons, many with original receipts.
So yes, there are still a few signed F5's out there that could turn up, no doubt. They are rare, of course, and most "unknown owners" would not know their value at this point, but, I think, when they finally decide to sell, the truth will probably come out.

[Jeff Mando]

So yes, there are still a few signed F5's out there that could turn up, no doubt. They are rare, of course, and most "unknown owners" would not know their value at this point, but, I think, when they finally decide to sell, the truth will probably come out.

Sure, fair is fair, and it wouldn't be to hard to research online, even for the inexperienced, as far as price is concerned. However, to get a market price, they would need to consign the instrument in most cases. My experience with the inexperienced is that often they are not willing to pay a consignment fee or object to the amount of the fee or are generally unreasonable. (I have a local man who thinks I should sell his flathead banjo for him with no consignment fee, because of the "advertising" it will bring me!) The instrument may also need cleaning, setup, or repair to be in top condition to get top money. Not to mention the years of research, travel, phone calls, etc., I have invested in finding the instrument in the first place. (that I will never recoup)

[Willie Poole]

I played a gig in Annapolis one evening and a lady came up and said her late dad owned a mandolin that looked like the one I was playing and she asked if I was interested in maybe buying it so I got her address and about a week later I went to see her and have a look at this mandolin, she told me she had talked to Bill Harrell about it and he gave her the name of a dealer that was said to be honest and she sold to him, I never asked who the dealer was or how much she got for it but many times I have wondered if it just might have been a Loar...IF I ever get another chance like that I will not drag my feet this time, I`ll even give the person a ride home just to look at it....

[Capt. E]

My parents were in the antique business and I have witnessed any number of "finds". Most were items worth $500 or so that were purchased at a garage sale etc for $5 or so. A friend of theirs (now deceased) had an incredibly good eye and would regularly find $1000 items for 50 cents at garage sales, the result of a lifetime of knowledge and research in the antique business. Once he found a $25,000 piece of Faberge' jewelry in a flea market box. It was dirty and looked like costume jewelry, but he "knew" what it was right away.
Finding a Loar F-5 (or a Stradivarius for that matter) under grandpa's bed for a pittance is mostly legend. There was a Loar found in Kansas not long ago, but the heirs figured out what they had with the help of an amazed music store owner. I am sure there are more out there.

[Jeff Mando]

Finding a Loar F-5 (or a Stradivarius for that matter) under grandpa's bed for a pittance is mostly legend. There was a Loar found in Kansas not long ago, but the heirs figured out what they had with the help of an amazed music store owner. I am sure there are more out there.

You are correct, the search has been going on a long time. I remember in the 80's, years before the internet, I would travel the backwoods, hills and rural locations looking for instruments. I tried to stay at least an hour from any interstate to give myself half a chance at finding something. Without fail, I'd find some out-of-the-way junk shop where the proprietor looked like an extra from "Deliverance" and I'd ask about instruments. (Between chewing and spitting tobacco) they all told me the same thing, "Ah sells all mah geetars to George Groon in Nashville!" So, not to say it's all sewn up, but the "word" has been out there for a long, long time.

[Nalapombu]

Anyone have numbers on how many signed LOAR F5 mandos were made and how many have been found and verified?

Isn't there an underground market for fake Loar F5 Mandos? I think I remember a couple stories about people that got burned bad on mandos that they were told and believed to be Loar mandos.

Fascinating stuff.

Nalajr

[allenhopkins]

Anyone have numbers on how many signed LOAR F5 mandos were made and how many have been found and verified?...

See Darryl's Post #21.

[Bill Snyder]

Nala, as Allen points out above, Darryl Wolfe, one of the world's greatest authorities on Loar signed mandolins posted in your thread already with the information you seek.

[f5loar]

The F5Journal estimates 94 still unaccounted for by the F5Journal. That means some owners either don't know about the F5Journal to put their numbers on the known list or they do and just don't want anyone to know they have them. I estimate that figure at half of the 94 or 47. That leaves 47 and of those 47 I estimate half of those destroyed by fires,floods, ex-wives and other acts of God and have left this earth. Leaving about 23 Loar F5s yet to be found that are like still in the hands of their first or second owners. A 21 year old buys a new Loar in 1923 would only be 70 today. So we could looking at waiting another 30 years before they are brought to light for sale. If you think you have stumbled upon one of these "closet" or "under the bed" finds you best get a 2nd opinion before buying due to the number of fakes out there. Some of the fakes are now over 40 years old.

[almeriastrings]

Leaving about 23 Loar F5s yet to be found that are like still in the hands of their first or second owners. A 21 year old buys a new Loar in 1923 would only be 70 today.

You might want to re-calculate that....

[Ivan Kelsall]

I suppose that it's entirely possible that a few Loars still exist,forgotten even by the folk that have them if they've been stashed away & not played for years. I remember that back in the mid.'60's when the Folk music boom kicked off over here,old,pre-war banjos & guitars were re-surfacing like crazy as word got aound that they might be worth someyhing. I re-furbished many of 'Grandpa's old banjos' that had sat in the attic for years. I remember one in particular,an English made Clifford Essex ''New Paragon''
top tension banjo that had been in the attic of an elderly lady who's husband had bought it before shortly before he passed away.
The banjo was relegated to the attic where it remained. How it came to be discovered i don't know,but it was in it's original case which was in top condition & the banjo itself,appart from being tarnished, was like the day it was made. I stripped it down,took the metal parts to work & buffed them back to a superb finish. Re-assembled, it looked like a million £'s worth of banjo,it would certainly cost mega-buck in today's market to make a banjo as elaborate as that one.
So,it's not impossible for a few very fine Gibson mandolins & maybe a Loar or 2 to be still out there waiting to be re-discovered,
Ivan

[allenhopkins]

...A 21 year old buys a new Loar in 1923 would only be 70 today...

Or, alternatively, would be 112 years old -- probably not gigging as much as he did in, say, the 1940's…might put that Loar up for sale.

Or maybe have it buried with him…?

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/signature_dates.html

[f5loar]

yeah sorry about that mis calculation. Still didn't someone just die at 115 a few months ago? Still possible!
So Dan says 241 verified and Darryl says 236. You guys need to get together more often! Still don't change my estimate of only about 20 or so more to be found.

[J.Albert]

Here's a question that goes 180 degrees in a different direction:

Of the "known" Loar mandolins, how many have been lost?
(i.e., to fire, accident, etc.) ?

[f5loar]

Lost or Stolen? I can think of none lost but quite a few stolen over the years. Some returned, some not. 2 I know not found to date belonged to Bill Monroe and Peter Rowan. Still missing in action. There have been at least 2 that suffered severe water damage and were rescued back to playing condition. There has been at least one mutilated by conversion of an H5 to an F5. Many have been subjected to "virziectomies" but survived the operation. And one with a busted neck was thrown in a trash can and repaired and still being used today. One almost caught on fire in an oven when being "baked".

[Jeff Mando]

If you think you have stumbled upon one of these "closet" or "under the bed" finds you best get a 2nd opinion before buying due to the number of fakes out there. Some of the fakes are now over 40 years old.

I think price might be an indicator. Well, if it is at an estate sale for $700, it might be a good deal even for a copy and more importantly, it would indicate the people involved are not part of the "informed" vintage instrument world--a good thing. On the other hand, if it is $5-10K, it could indicate that some research was done (poorly) or it might be a fake. If it is $25K or up, bring your own appraiser!!!!

The late Ed Roman ran a Las Vegas guitar shop catering to celebrities, famous players, and collectors. He was also extremely opinionated and spoke very negatively about the vintage guitar world--not so much anti-guitar, but anti-insane pricing and anti-collector's mentality. Most vintage dealers I have spoken to disagreed with Ed Roman, but he brings up some valid points about pricing and questioning a seller's honesty. I'm paraphrasing, but he said something to the effect of, "you can only be 100 percent sure an instrument is real if you got it cheap." He goes on to say, then there would be no question or motivation to cheat somebody. Once it gets into the hands of vintage dealers, etc., then originality, correct parts, etc., all have to "add up" to justify the price. If something doesn't add up, then they do whatever it takes to make it add up. Correct or not. I don't know how I feel about his statement, but he makes a point--If I found a vintage guitar from a little old lady at a yard sale for $100, I would not question it's originality or story, other than what I could see with my own eyes. I would just enjoy the bargain. If the same guitar was $5000 from a dealer at a vintage guitar show, I would be looking it over with a magnifying glass...........just sayin'

I'm sure some of Ed's rants are still up on his website. Fun reading for sure. He gets into Gibson PAF pickups, too--oh, boy!

[Ivan Kelsall]

'Vintage' is 'Vintage' & doesn't always equate to 'good' !. I've seen 'Vintage' Elec. & Acoustic guitars for sale over here at guitar shows at ludicrous asking prices,right next to modern instruments of similar design & much better build quality (IMHO). Over decades,build standards,even on mid-priced instruments, are as good as or even better than on instruments 50 years old or more.
However,the 'scarcity vlaue' does come into play when looking at the Vintage Guitars built by famous builders,which is understandable. A high quality 'arch-top' Jazz guitar built by say,John D'Angelico,in the 1940 (ish) era,is going to be worth a lot of cash.JD built a finite number of guitars & he won't be building any more. So,if you want one of those rare beasts,pay up !. One of my personal favourite guitars is the Gibson ES-175. I played one at a Guitar show some years back & acoustically it was as 'flat' as
a 'flat thing'. Plugged in however it sounded glorious. It was on sale for £3,500 UK & that's going back over 10 years. I also played a 'modern built' arch-top Jazz guitar made by Yamaha,the AEX1500 Martin Taylor model,selling at less than half the price. It outperformed the Gibson acoustically & when amplified - that was the one i bought. I also played a 'Vinatge' brand arch-top,a copy of the ES-175, which was amazingly good for around £350 UK .Technologies in most things have improved over the years, & items that were very expensive back then have modern counterparts which are as good,but can be manufactured much more cheaply,resulting in an overall less expensive,but still very good sounding instrument. But,if you want the 'real' Vinatge,then be prepared to pay for it & understand that a 'modern' instrument might beat it hands down,as progress in most things doesn't stand still :- http://www.jhs.co.uk/vintagesemi.html
Ivan

[Nalapombu]

Nala, as Allen points out above, Darryl Wolfe, one of the world's greatest authorities on Loar signed mandolins posted in your thread already with the information you seek.

Sometimes I forget to go back and check previous posts or forget what I've read. I guess this is the kind of stuff that happens when you start to get old.


So..there are 113 that are not known, but thought to be produced. If you looks at the numbers, there are 290 that have been verified out of 403, that's a survival rate of almost 72%! That's pretty amazing itself to see how that many made it almost 100 years. Anyway, out of the 103 that are not known, if we take the same rate as the ones found, 72%, that would mean that there are 82 LOAR mandos out there just waiting to be ferreted out!

Nalajr

[Jeff Mando]

Anyway, out of the 103 that are not known, if we take the same rate as the ones found, 72%, that would mean that there are 82 LOAR mandos out there just waiting to be ferreted out!

Nalajr

All I'm asking for is to find FIVE of those! (and then I can retire.....and play my Alvarez!)

[Nalapombu]

There's no doubt in my mind that there are several LOAR F5's out there in the hands of owners that just don't want it known. In this day, where everything you post or "say" online is there forever and easily available to anyone that looks. We've all heard horror stories about thieves using Facebook to see when people are on vacation, what they have bought lately, maybe what kind of jewelry the Woman of the house likes to wear for a ritzy night out, if the husband (or wife) has an awesome gun collection and so forth, and then find themselves robbed of all their valuables.

Anyone out there that has one and is still involved in playing and such would pretty much know that he (or she) has a VERY valuable mandolin on their hands. Valuable enough for many people to kill you over. They probably figure the best course of action is to just not say a thing about it and that way they can go on playing and enjoying their rare and very valuable mandolin without worrying that some punk is going to break in and steal it in when they go out for their weekly dinner at Golden Corral.

I know if I had one sitting here in my room I'd have some very serious reservations about publicizing it.

I'm quite sure that there would be a ready and willing market for a stolen LOAR, especially overseas like in Japan or China. If not to play, to have as an uber status symbol to show off to their other less well off pals.

Just a theory.

Nalajr

[f5joe]

Valuable enough for many people to kill you over.

Nalajr

A bit strong, don't you think?

[AlanN]

Yeah, your post is freaky and foments fear. Is that your intent?