Would Be No Rock & Roll Without The Carter Sisters

[journeybear]

Oh, please! That is quite a stretch. First of all, if you're going to cite a video version of a song as an example, use one of the actual recording, in which you can hear whatever it is you're hoping will back your argument. This is a much clearer example than the live version with bad audio you presented:



From this video clip, in which it is possible to hear the music, I am guessing you are referring to the descending chord progression at the start, and the fingerpicking figure that goes with it. In case you didn't know, you cannot copyright a chord progression. Not that this one is all that similar to "Stairway To Heaven" anyway. Melodies can be copyrighted, but I believe that the minimum notes required is eight. If you want to say the first four notes of both songs are the same, fine, but that is a minuscule level of similarity, and in any event, permitted by the concept of Fair Use and acceptable under the definition. Case dismissed.

As to other Led Zeppelin songs, I thought they were actually pretty good about putting songwriting credits on their record labels. I recall being introduced to the identity of many blues musicians from such credits, and then looking up who were McKinley Morganfield and Chester Burnett and Ellis McDaniels (Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, and Bo Diddley, respectively) and others led to a deeper appreciation of rock's roots and the people responsible. I never would have known who Memphis Minnie was if her name didn't appear in the credit for "When The Levee Breaks." I'm not absolving Page and Plant of all wrongdoing, but I think they get a bad rap from people taking potshots at them. Some of it earned, I'll grant, but not all.

On a related note: “It must be remembered that, while there are an enormous number of possible permutations of the musical notes of the scale, only a few are pleasing; and much fewer still suit the infantile demands of the popular ear. Recurrence is not therefore an inevitable badge of plagiarism.” Darrell v. Joe Morris Music Corp., 113 F.2d 80, 80 (2d Cir. 1940)

[High Lonesome Valley]

Can't copyright a chord progression, but sure can steal one. Johnny Rivers created it, Jimmy Paige stole it. No stretch here.

As John Lennon said when he got busted for stealing "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord", "Good songwriters borrow, great songwriters steal."

And how I list my references is admittedly pure laziness. I'm retired, I do it my own way.

[Tom Smart]

As John Lennon said when he got busted for stealing "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord", "Good songwriters borrow, great songwriters steal."

Really? I thought Abraham Lincoln said that. Or was it Mark Twain? I'm pretty sure it was Groucho Marx who said, "Careful internet posters do their homework. Lazy ones just make stuff up."

Since Mark Andes and the estate of Randy California are suing Led Zeppelin, claiming that the opening lick of "Stairway" was taken from the Spirit song "Taurus," maybe Johnny Rivers should be suing them. And then the estate of Richard Rogers could sue the whole bunch of them for copying the progression from "My Funny Valentine."

[jaycat]

Well, George Harrison would at least be a little closer.

[Tom Smart]

The first Rock & Roll riff? The Carter Sisters "I'm Leaving You This Lonesome Song"

Mike Seeger recorded Sara and Maybelle doing that song in 1963. The recording can be found on his compilation of field recordings, "Close to Home." In the liner notes, he says: "This song was composed by the Delmore Brothers in the 1930s and was not previously recorded by Sara and Maybelle."

Maybe the estate of the Delmore Brothers should be suing the estate of Maybelle Carter.

Oh, and by the way, "Summer Rain" was written by James Hendricks.

[Eric Hanson]

"As John Lennon said when he got busted for stealing "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord", "Good songwriters borrow, great songwriters steal."

Upon a further investigation I was able to find a website titled quoteinvestigator.com. Seems as though tthe quote has quite a history of plagiarism itself. :-D

Who'd a thunk it?

[Bob Bass]

[QUOTE=Tom Smart;1331311]Mike Seeger recorded Sara and Maybelle doing that song in 1963. The recording can be found on his compilation of field recordings, "Close to Home." In the liner notes, he says: "This song was composed by the Delmore Brothers in the 1930s and was not previously recorded by Sara and Maybelle."

Hi Tom-

Thanks for digging out that this tune was composed by the Delmores. I had heard Maybelle and Sara do the tune some time ago on a cd of material that Mike had recorded in 1963 and had tried to find an earlier version that they, or that Maybelle and her daughters (Carter Sisters) might have done, and was not able to find it- for the good reason you have posted!

Bob

[journeybear]

Can't copyright a chord progression, but sure can steal one. Johnny Rivers created it, Jimmy Paige stole it. No stretch here.

Oh, really? So these are the only two minor key descending chord progressions ever written? And since one came before the other the second one must be plagiarism? There are dozens, scores, maybe hundreds of progressions with descending bass lines, or walkdowns. There may be thousands or even millions of them, as just about every guitar player has messed around with them; they seem to be a rite of passage when learning to fingerpick. Saying that one is based on another one in particular is unprovable.

The progressions aren't even all that similar. From Ultimate Guitar:

Am E+ Am7 Am6 Am E+ Am7 Am6
Summer rain taps at my window...west wind, soft as a sweet dream..

Fmaj7 Am Bmaj7/G# C/G D/F#
There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
Fmaj7 Am/B Am
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.

But I forgot - You started this thread, with a pretty specious proposition. In light of that far-fetched supposition, this shouldn't be too surprising.

Look. I don't care who's right anywhere near as much as I care about what's right. But saying that one is a rip-off of the other when there is no direct proof and there isn't even that much similarity - well, that just isn't right.

As John Lennon said when he got busted for stealing "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord", "Good songwriters borrow, great songwriters steal."

John Lennon didn't say that, and George Harrison wrote "My Sweet Lord." With a little subconscious help, as the presiding judge said.

I'm going back to The Walking Dead marathon. That is more believable than this.

[High Lonesome Valley]

Got my dead Beatles mixed up, shame on me. Ten lashes with a wet noodle while hanging by my thumbs as penance.

The Carter Sisters were performing the song in the 30's as far as I recall, back when they were the Carter Sisters and cranking out several recorded songs a week for old time radio.

You musicologists sure are an anal bunch, eh? Now take a deep breath and just relax.

[journeybear]

Classy. Rather than just admit an error, you're going with this? Way to go. A simple "My bad" would've been enough.

I'm not a musicologist, BTW. Just a fairly regular guy paying attention.

[jaycat]

The Carter Sisters were performing the song in the 30's as far as I recall . . .

You sure have a better memory than I do!

[Mike Bunting]

The Carter Sisters were performing the song in the 30's as far as I recall, back when they were the Carter Sisters and cranking out several recorded songs a week for old time radio. .

That would have been quite the feat seeing as Helen was born in 1927, June in 1929, and the youngest, Anita was born in 1933.

[Mike Bunting]

You sure have a better memory than I do!

And more creative too, not being limited by facts.

[High Lonesome Valley]

From WP-

"In the 1920s through the early 1940s, Maybelle Carter was part of the historic country music trio The Carter Family with her cousin Sara Carter and Sara's husband A. P. Carter. Maybelle's contribution to the group was singing harmony to Sara's lead vocal as well as playing guitar. Maybelle was married to A.P.'s brother Ezra Carter and had three children: June, Helen, and Anita."

Pardon me, legalists, should've said "The Carter Family" or, more accurately, "The Carter Cousins".

Who gets the points here, the snipes or me? I think it's me. I embody the spirit, rather than the letter, of the law and I declare I win hands down.

Therefore, "The Carter Family" played the first Rock & Roll riff.

[bigskygirl]

Seriously....?

[Tom Smart]

Who gets the points here, the snipes or me? I think it's me. I embody the spirit, rather than the letter, of the law and I declare I win hands down.

Therefore, "The Carter Family" played the first Rock & Roll riff.

Congratulations on your win.

Please accept my most abject apologies for getting all reality-based on you. Or as you charmingly prefer to call it, "anal."

As your victory clearly demonstrates, facts have no place in a discussion of historical events. We all need to keep in mind the famous quote from Charles Darwin, "Facts? Who needs facts?"

[journeybear]

Makes sense. Evolution is still just a theory, after all.

Then again, can you back up that assertion with a citation?

[Tom Smart]

Then again, can you back up that assertion with a citation?

Darwin said that in the 30s as far as I recall.

[journeybear]

Apparently that's proof enough for some. Suits this cockamamie discussion.

OK, now I've stopped laughing long enough to type a bit. That sounded rather terse to have come from the learned gentleman. And while I wish it were true, I haven't found anything on the web to prove its existence. It did come up a lot in blogs, mostly from folks mocking the stances taken by creationists. I was hoping that it could have been excerpted, belonging to a sentence like "Who needs facts when the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of this conclusion." Something like that. Not seeing it. So it goes ...

But this doesn't discredit your preceding sentence, a gem of sarcasm if there ever was one.

[AlanN]

Count with me, fellows: 10-9-8...