Bach picking technique and problem chord.

[pEETb]

So, i was just wondering. When playing Bach on the mandolin do i have to stick to the DUDUDU picking technique or can i stray from this? And if the piece is in in 3/4 (Partita I, Corrente) is it better to pick DUDDUD?

Also, does anyone know a better way to play this chord

2
7
4
3

Or do i just have to wait until my fingers stretch that far? It is a real toughy....

Thanks

[avaldes]

I'm a 2-year player, so others may disagree, but here goes. If there are 2 quarter notes in a row and the tempo is not fast. I usually play DD. If eighths or more, or for faster tempo, I usually alternate. With groups of 3 (fast 3/4 or eighth note triplets), DUU seems natural and gives the emphasis on the first note in the group. I play a couple of classical pieces, and don't know why you would need this chord in a Bach partita. It is an A7, so you might just substitute 2-2-4-3 (bar across 2, ring on A string fret 4, middle on E string fret 3). Or just pick the notes as you need them, if you don't actually play the entire chord at once.

[JeffD]

If there are 2 quarter notes in a row and the tempo is not fast. I usually play DD. If eighths or more, or for faster tempo, I usually alternate. .

That is my default. That and anything longer than a quarter note I am likely to tremolo, as appropriate.

In preparing any piece, Bach or anything, if the default doesn't work I figure something else out that does.

[JeffJones]

First, is this played as a chord? Or are the notes of the chord picked individually? That can make a big difference in how you approach the fingering.

There are a few nearly impossible fingerings similar to that in other parts of that Partita, there is one in the Sarabande that gives me fits. For a piece like this I am not a fan of changing notes, I kind of think the difficult passages are kind of the point. I say stick with it, maybe adjust your left hand placement a bit for that fingering so that you free up your fingers a bit for that spot and then just give your fingers time to get used to hitting it.

I suspect that DUDDUD would be frowned on for this piece, but I am not an expert. I have found, with the few Bach pieces that I have worked on, that I start with either a DUDU or DUDDUD pattern, depending on the time signature and typical feel of the piece, but I deviate further from the default more on these pieces than I do when playing bluegrass or folk music.

Here is a video of Thile playing this piece, it might give you some hint on how to approach some of the fingerings and give you one version of the feel and tempo of the piece.



* - Jump to around 10 minutes 30 seconds for the Corrente. I tried to embed at that time but the forum does not seem to be respecting the time marker.

[August Watters]

I like to start with DUD/UDU for consecutive groups of 3's - that's what you see most in the 18th-century tutors like Leone and Denis. OTOH, this is not mandolin music; when you adapt from violin or cello it's always a question how much to borrow from classical mandolin technique. My sense is that any orthodoxy about how Bach "should" be interpreted needs to be reexamined - most often I see players using DUDU alternate picking, where applying other picking techniques can extend the tonal palette of mandolin.

As to the difficult voicing of the A7 chord, keep in mind these chords were not intended to be played all at once, but rather rolled across with the bow. So approaching them as a sustained chord doesn't get at the composer's intent any more than revoicing to an easier fingering - both are mandolin-centric solutions so IMHO there's no one best way of doing it. Finding solutions - balancing the tradeoffs and deciding what sounds best - is a big part of the fun of this music!

[JeffD]

So, i was just wondering. When playing Bach on the mandolin do i have to stick to the DUDUDU picking technique or can i stray from this? And if the piece is in in 3/4 (Partita I, Corrente) is it better to pick DUDDUD?
:

At my level of play, (I am never going to present a critically significant Bach piece, ever. Its always going to be for the fun of making great music and sharing it with friends.) I think that form is only a consideration where it makes things easier. Busting my fingers over a piece to preserve some arbitrary standard of form when it makes learning and playing this lovely music harder - well that's not my way.

So my view is, within a range of avoiding as much as possible any changing of rhythm or emphasis intended by the composer, do what you gotta do.

When I am working on a piece, I listen to recordings of it as much as possible, to see where my short cuts are really diverting, or where they don't matter.

My approach - hardly informed by training, and perhaps the reason I will never, ever, play at the level at which I would purchase a recording of it.

[des]

If I ever get to play this even competently I'll be delighted, nevertheless, I might be able to contribute something to the theory side of it.

If any body was listening to John Creedon last night (RTE radio 1 - 8 to 9.45) they will have learnt that there are currants for cakes and raisins for everything.

There is certainly a reason for the picking pattern in this - it's because the piece is a courante or corrente - it's in 3/4 - 3 beats to the bar and is counted 1 & 2 & 3 &. I suggest that this is what you hear when you listen to, say, Jascha Heifetz playing it.

The piece is a courante or corrente - meaning running or flowing. If it were in 6/8 or 3/8 it would be a jig. Many of the Bach pieces that are played on unaccompanied instruments are based on dance forms. Some of them, most notably the jig and to lesser extent the bourrée are still alive, if without the weight of significance that they carried in the Baroque era.

Jigs are scored in 3/8, 6/8 and played and stepped in groups of fast triplets. 6/8 can be counted thus - 1 and a 2 and a - on the mandolin DUUDUU or DUDDUD. The courante has a quite different feel 1 & 2 & 3 &

All this seems to imply that the piece will mostly be played DUDUDU - it flows like a current should.

[bayAreaDude]

I'm a 2-year player, so others may disagree, but here goes. If there are 2 quarter notes in a row and the tempo is not fast. I usually play DD. If eighths or more, or for faster tempo, I usually alternate. With groups of 3 (fast 3/4 or eighth note triplets), DUU seems natural and gives the emphasis on the first note in the group. I play a couple of classical pieces, and don't know why you would need this chord in a Bach partita. It is an A7, so you might just substitute 2-2-4-3 (bar across 2, ring on A string fret 4, middle on E string fret 3). Or just pick the notes as you need them, if you don't actually play the entire chord at once.

Does this mean there are times, like at higher tempo, where you play quarter notes DUDU? I ask because I can't think of a time I ever play sequences of quarter notes without using all downstrokes.

OP - you could consider using a 3 note chord for the A7 by dropping the root and playing the flat 7 in it's place.

[avaldes]

Now you're trying to make me think. Most of what I'm playing, I guess the sequences of quarters are played as consecutive downstrokes. But I can imagine if the tempo requires, I would alternate.

[pEETb]

Thanks for all your replies. Very helpful.

Although I didn’t think it was an A7 chord, more of an A# or possibly an F#7.

Its odd because Mr Thile definitely isn’t playing this chord in that video (it’s the second chord he plays after the first trill) but I have tried other ways of playing it and none seem to sound correct. If I leave off the high F# then it doesn’t quite have that nice ring to it.

Grr!

[JeffJones]

I pulled out my sheet music for that piece and tried it out after watching the video again and I think he is actually playing that chord. I think he is using his index to cover both the E string note and the G string note, as a sort of angled bar or bridge.

2 - Index
7 - Pinky
4 - Middle
3 - Index

I tried it out and it worked okay for me, on its own and in the context of that phrase, a little awkward but workable.

[JeffJones]

Also, you asked about different picking patterns when playing Bach. Here is a video of me playing the Sarabande Double from the Partita No. 1. It is in 9/8 and I start out using a DUDDUDDUD pattern. That pattern quickly devolves into a total mess, so I post this more as a cautionary tale than something to copy, but it may be useful to you.

I like that the DUDDUD pattern makes this piece feel a bit like a jig-ish fiddle tune. I don't know if it is correct or accurate to Bach's intent for the piece, but I think it is fun to play it that way. Now that I can make it through the notes of the piece I am trying to get more disciplined about my picking direction, probably should have paid a little more attention to it from the start.

[PVia]

Hi all...that "problem chord" noted by the OP is fingered (from G string down to the E string):

1st finger on the A#
2nd finger on the F#
4th finger on the F# (9th fret)
Open E string

The chord is an F#7 with the 3rd in the bass.

There are a few instances in the Sonatas & Partitas where the open string is utilized like this, and it serves well to be aware of them.

[JeffJones]

PVia, is that the standard Violin fingering? If so, I don't think that works very well on the mandolin. I found it to be very difficult to make the stretch up to the 9th fret when I was trying out different fingerings of this chord.

If not, just how long are your fingers?

[PVia]

You know, I thought about this all day...and I know I said that solutions like this pop up in the S & P in a few instances, but...this is not one of them...and the reason is the melody preceding the chord, which needs to be clear and uninterrupted.

You have the 32nd notes F# - G and then the chord with the F# again, on top of the chord to complete the melody line. Usually you want to keep those sounding in the same place rather than playing the last F# on a different string.

So yes, JeffJones...the fingering you mentioned a few posts ago with that funny angled bar with the index finger, is the best bet and indeed the one that Thile uses in most of the instances I've seen. Excellent call...

I can play the voicing/fingering that I suggested earlier (you really have to get your thumb down below the center of the neck and really arch those fingers), however the melody figure suffers. You can play the F# - G - F# with the 4th finger, but it all gets a bit twiddly by then.