Tuners

[Gibsonman]

Just checking out the Stewart MacDonald Golden Age tuners. They look great and are only like $ 50 to $ 60 Compare to Waverly's being $ 520. Do you think the Golden Age can stand up to the Waverly's and do as good a job ???

[tablaninja]

I have the Golden Age tuners on a mandolin I built and they're very nice. Good looking, smooth action and they stay in tune very well. I have no real experience with the Waverly tuners though.

[Ron McMillan]

If you buy a $5 wrench from Walmart, will it work just as well as a $75 wrench from a professional tool maker? Of course not.

[Zissou Intern]

Waverlies are beautifully made and finished tuning machines. They are also heavy, over priced, and over built (much like Abel reels). I have owned several guitars and one mandolin with Waverly tuners, and I don't believe their guitar tuners, and most especially, their mandolin tuners are worth the cost. But each to his or her own.

Do you think you will wear out two sets of the Golden Age mandolin tuners in your lifetime? How about ten sets? If so, you may want to consider the Waverlies. Even then, it'd be a break even proposition.

I just got a set of the Golden Age Tuners for my Kentucky A. They are very nice and very smooth. I'll be sure to post in a decade or three if they begin to malfunction or if their premature demise otherwise precipitates tuning problems.

[almeriastrings]

You could look at this another way.

Do you need $500 tuners to reliably tune your mandolin?

Obviously, not. I have some with Grovers, some with Schaller's, some with Waverley's and one with the GA's.

They all tune nicely and all stay in tune...no problem with any of them. None of them have ever broke or failed, either.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Almeria,the owner of an Ellis 'F' style, informed me yesterday that the tuners on my new 'used' Ellis "A" style are Waverleys. I really can't see anything in them that i would think commanded their high cost. They look no better than the Schallers on my Lebeda or Weber & neither do they work any better. One thing i will say is that the 'ivoroid' tuner buttons are slack & they look cheap compared to the imitation MOP buttons on the Schallers (My Lebeda has real MOP buttons). I intend to remove the button screws &,clean them & apply a tiny drop of oil to see if that will allow me to tighten the buttons up so that they're not slack any more. However,they do stay in tune with no slipping,as do the less expensive Schallers - my tuners need a 'tune up' !,
Ivan

[Ray(T)]

I hate 'em all!

A tuner button snapped off a set of Schallers less than a month after taking delivery of a new mandolin. The Gotoh tuners on my National are as stiff as hell and no amount of lubrication has seemed to improve things. The Golden Age Restoration tuners I put on my '15 A are an improvement on the 99 year old originals. The Golden Age A style tuners that came on my OM just aren't up to the job and I've ordered a set from Keith Robeson in the UK (I was looking at some from Niccolo Alessi but he never bothered replying to my email). My Kimble came with a set of Waverlies. They are well engineered and I can find no reason to fault them. A used set of Schallers that I bought from Dave Hanson ended up on my beater and seem as good as any of the others.

"You pays your money and you takes your choice" as we say in these parts.

[LongBlackVeil]

I just ordered a set for my a jr. It needs them pretty bad, I don't ever blame tuning issues on the tuners but the reason I'm getting these is because the tuners are just simply painful to turn. I'll end up with carpel tunnel if I keep trying to use these. I'll just keep the originals in the case.

Regarding waverlies, no I don't think you need to spend 500 bucks for great tuners. Waverlies don't work any better than Grover's or schallers, they just don't IMO. They may last longer but the Grover's and schallers will last a lifetime so it's a moot point. I haven't tried these golden age tuners so I can't comment, but I think they'll be just fine.

[stevedenver]

i have to agree, and I have not only a set of waverlies on my ellis ,but a set of alessis on my brent, and have had schallers and gotohs and golden age.

one thing for all, install, alignment and bushing tolerances make a huge difference. First and foremost to get the most.

I love the artistry of the alessis, and I don't regret them one jot. They are far and away the best and smooth and perfect. Waverlies are pretty nice, but imho, not at all better than my aged Gotohs (aged brass are very fine tuners imho) or Golden Ages functionally-ie similar ratio, tightness, backlash, and feel.

But, with humility and having spent a good amount, I have since learned, the hard way, that tuning 'instability' can be a variety of things, including strings, nut, and simply the instrument expanding, contracting, or otherwise reacting to the environment. I had not realized this until I "fixed' things by replacing tuners, and surprise, nothing has changed. Most likely, as with guitars, the nut will be a likely culprit. I replaced my gotohs with Alessis, and, while im happy, I have the same issues. The mando is simply one that takes about 30 minutes to settle, then its fine for hours. My others don't take this long at all. My fern, with stock crap schallers, is basically very very stable.

There are differences indeed, and one thing I do find is less backlash with the above tuners, except my schallers.

The real question, I think, is about value. The better tuners ARE better, but perhaps not so much better as to merit price versus function. The fact is, one can use those old 20's Gibson tuners and get in tune -may be a PITA, but they do function. OTOH, I love my Alessis and, like my Waverlies, and now that I have them , I would not give either up. OTOH< I probably wouldn't replace them with what I know now.

With all respect, I think if you have to think much about the price, they probably aren't going to live up to the 'dream'. I suspect that if youre out 60 for the golden age, or a 100 for the aged brass gotohs (which I love) even if theyre pretty good, you will be happy. The waverlies, well, I dunno. I guess if you really dig knowing and telling you have them, it might be an added value. I find its a lot easier to swallow mid price mistakes than whoppers.






PS TABLANINJA-I love your site and the music!! -its amazing-fresh and a wonderful meld. I have been listening all morning-really cool!

[doc holiday]

Ivan, The ivoroid tuner buttons on your tuners are the result of restrictions on the import/export of pearl. Ones in the USA are pearl. BTW, Waverly A tuners typically do not have screw on buttons. Are you sure they are Waverly tuners? I'd check with Trevor. In any case the button slop can be fixed with a drop of superglue. BTW I am a fan of Waverly, Alessi & other high precision artifacts. It's the typical Timex/Rolex story. I've had excellent service from Stewmac & Waverly. I will admit that the latest series of Golden Age restoration tuners are pretty nice.

[sgrexa]

I have experimented with just about every brand of mandolin tuners out there with the exception of the UK built Robson brand. With guitars, I do not think Waverly tuners are worth the added cost. The Grover V97s I just put on my vintage Martin were only $30 shipped for a set of six tuners and are nice precision made machines with 18:1 brass gears much like the Waverlies. The Grovers also include a tension adjustment screw which I think is an advantage over the ~$160 Waverly tuners. The only complaint I have is the kind of cheap non removable die cast knobs, but for the money they function very smoothly and precisely. With mandolins, where you really need every little advantage you can get to stay in tune, Waverly tuners are very well made, but certainly an expensive option. They are also a little heavy. I personally prefer the Nicholo Alessi machines at that price point. They are a little lighter, and truly handcrafted, beautiful tuning machines. The best I have ever used. Mike Kemnitzer prefers Schallers on all of his mandolins, but he does a couple of modifications to them prior to installing: "I rework the tuners before installing and I think they're the greatest. They tune smoother than the Waverlys and are also lighter in weight. I get them to work even smoother by lapping them with a slightly abrasive lubricant, disassemble, ultrasonically clean, lubricate with a high pressure grease and re assemble" I must say these are smooth as butter and perform flawlessly.

Sean

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I have Waverly's on my latest mandolin, first time I've had them on a mandolin. The mandolin stays in tune much better than any other mandolin I've owned. They are also tighter than other tuners I've owned. Does this mandolin stay in tune better because of the Waverly's or because of other aspects of the instrument...Can't say.

[LongBlackVeil]

i have to agree, and I have not only a set of waverlies on my ellis ,but a set of alessis on my brent, and have had schallers and gotohs and golden age.

one thing for all, install, alignment and bushing tolerances make a huge difference. First and foremost to get the most.

I love the artistry of the alessis, and I don't regret them one jot. They are far and away the best and smooth and perfect. Waverlies are pretty nice, but imho, not at all better than my aged Gotohs (aged brass are very fine tuners imho) or Golden Ages functionally-ie similar ratio, tightness, backlash, and feel.

But, with humility and having spent a good amount, I have since learned, the hard way, that tuning 'instability' can be a variety of things, including strings, nut, and simply the instrument expanding, contracting, or otherwise reacting to the environment. I had not realized this until I "fixed' things by replacing tuners, and surprise, nothing has changed. Most likely, as with guitars, the nut will be a likely culprit. I replaced my gotohs with Alessis, and, while im happy, I have the same issues. The mando is simply one that takes about 30 minutes to settle, then its fine for hours. My others don't take this long at all. My fern, with stock crap schallers, is basically very very stable.

There are differences indeed, and one thing I do find is less backlash with the above tuners, except my schallers.

The real question, I think, is about value. The better tuners ARE better, but perhaps not so much better as to merit price versus function. The fact is, one can use those old 20's Gibson tuners and get in tune -may be a PITA, but they do function. OTOH, I love my Alessis and, like my Waverlies, and now that I have them , I would not give either up. OTOH< I probably wouldn't replace them with what I know now.

With all respect, I think if you have to think much about the price, they probably aren't going to live up to the 'dream'. I suspect that if youre out 60 for the golden age, or a 100 for the aged brass gotohs (which I love) even if theyre pretty good, you will be happy. The waverlies, well, I dunno. I guess if you really dig knowing and telling you have them, it might be an added value. I find its a lot easier to swallow mid price mistakes than whoppers.






PS TABLANINJA-I love your site and the music!! -its amazing-fresh and a wonderful meld. I have been listening all morning-really cool!

Agreed, if you have tuners that are relative new, its very unlikely that they are causing tuning issues. Its almost always the nut or saddle slots

[Ray(T)]

Ivan, The ivoroid tuner buttons on your tuners are the result of restrictions on the import/export of pearl. Ones in the USA are pearl. BTW, Waverly A tuners typically do not have screw on buttons. Are you sure they are Waverly tuners? I'd check with Trevor.

Ivan, if you email me a photo of the tuners I'll compare them to the Waverleys on my Kimble.

[almeriastrings]

Almeria,the owner of an Ellis 'F' style, informed me yesterday that the tuners on my new 'used' Ellis "A" style are Waverleys. I really can't see anything in them that i would think commanded their high cost.

The current spec on the A-5 Deluxe is for Waverley's...

However, I have just double checked and for a time (around 2009?) it looks like Gotoh's may have been used on some of them. At least, some stores have described models built around that time as featuring Gotosh tuners.

So, those could well be Gotoh's. On the other hand... Elderly had one with Gotoh tuners shown, but again, no screw.

http://www.elderly.com/new_instrumen...ms/EA5DLX4.htm

The 'reverse' models shown here have screws, the regular don't (M120):

http://www.g-gotoh.com/international/?btp_product=ma40r

[mandroid]

I bought a 3rd hand Mix A5. earlier owner put Waverlys on it and damaged the tuners in the process .
because the peg head hole spacing was not spot on.. they forced them in any ways..

I ordered a set of Stew Mac Elites , and Stew Mac took the Waverly Tuners in for inspection and repair ..

the lower cost Tuners were fine, and tolerated the minor peg head spacing variance better .
and have stayed on the mandolin ever since ..

now if you bought a premium priced builder's mandolin .. Ellis was mentioned,
which they accurately drilled all 8 holes in the headstock so there was no binding
of the Waverly's capstans and the base plates.
then that would not be an issue.

though the cost difference remains..

[Ivan Kelsall]

I just had a look at the StewMac website & the Waverly "F" style tuners do have screws to hold the buttons onto the shaft,but the "A" style tuners seem to be glued on,so they may be Gotohs.
Ok - I'm almost certain that they are Gotoh's.I just had a look at the Ellis tuners & they're identical to these.Now all i need is some Black Gotoh tuner buttons !,
So many thanks to Almeria once more,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

Roger Siminoff has those, Ivan.

http://parts.siminoff.net/machines.aspx

[John Flynn]

If I were upgrading tuners, I would consider German-made Rubner tuners. They have a unique design with a teflon bushing and tensioning spring on each gear and they seem to be made with great precision. Their plain tuners are priced in the Grover/Schaller/Gotoh range and the are about the same weight, but I think they are better tuners than any of those three brands. Their higher-end models are engraved, inlaid and really beautiful. The link below has some nice detailed pics. They also do F-style and slotted head tuners, but they aren't shown on the linked page.

http://www.rubnertuners.com/mandolin-machines/

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Almeria - I found them on Roger Siminoff's site at $30.85 US,that's just under £19,which isn't bad until you start adding postage,to which 'total' you can then add 25% duty & a PO £8 handling fee. That works out at around £39 UK or just under $65 US,that's more than double the US cost = no way !!.
From what i've read on here,there seems to be quite a variation in the spacing of the string capstans on different makes of tuner. I'd have thought it common sense to make all tuning machines interchangeable ie. Waverly's off - Schallers on,a straight swap over. That way all manufacturers would be in with a chance of their tuners being ordered as an up-grade,rather than another maker's tuners,
Ivan

[Caleb]

I wanted black tuner buttons on my mandolin and figured out pretty quick there was no way to replace just the buttons, so I ordered a set of Golden Age tuners from StewMac. At least two of the tuners, once installed, were almost impossible to turn. Sent them back. Got a replacement set. I thought I was home free: then I got to the very last tuner. Almost impossible to turn. Back they went, and my old tuners went back on. I don't get it, because I've read such great reviews of them here. Perhaps they just had a bad run?

[Polecat]

If I were upgrading tuners, I would consider German-made Rubner tuners. They have a unique design with a teflon bushing and tensioning spring on each gear and they seem to be made with great precision. Their plain tuners are priced in the Grover/Schaller/Gotoh range and the are about the same weight, but I think they are better tuners than any of those three brands. Their higher-end models are engraved, inlaid and really beautiful. The link below has some nice detailed pics. They also do F-style and slotted head tuners, but they aren't shown on the linked page.

http://www.rubnertuners.com/mandolin-machines/

That is a great tip! Thanks John

[almeriastrings]

They sell direct within the EU... good prices. I know a few classical guitar players who use them and they rate them very highly.

http://rubner-markneukirchen.de

I don't know how the post, screw holes and bushes line up with other brands for replacement, purposes, however.

[Polecat]

As I live in Germany I will be contacting them to ask about details. Their basic model is extremely competitive, price-wise (from 26 Euros), and if they fit my Eastman and are made to the same standard as the more elaborate models, I'll certainly order a set to try out.

[Dave Greenspoon]

This question reminds me of when I used to order supplies for my electrician's shop on the Saratoga. The sticker shock for MILSPEC vs. "open-item" options was often staggering. Then again, it wasn't the cost of the part, per se, as much as it was the certification that the item was in spec for tolerances. Some pieces of gear I could order the "Radio Shack" version at a fraction of the cost of the parts for other gear. The difference was how mission-critical the gear was. Trust me: there are times when you want to KNOW that a part that might sell for $3.00 for civilian purposes is not going to fail when used on a warship. The electronic switches for your hot tub just aren't the same critical concern as the switches for the 10,000vDC feeding the ships internal navigation system uploading data to F-14's (yes, I'm dating myself).

So, do I need $500 tuners? I don't...but someone else who makes a real living on their instrument might well feel that need. Me? I'm happy to have modern tuners that hold tune nicely without being concerned for who makes it. If they work, then, they work.

That said, folks might be interested to know that according to folks on the Gibson forum, Grovers have evidently been made by Jin Ho since 2002.