Pentatonic Scale for Idiots

[Bertram Henze]

G-a-g-a

[billkilpatrick]

G-a-g-a

no-no - that's the catatonic scale

[journeybear]

Mee-YOW!!!

[Bertram Henze]

no-no - that's the catatonic scale

Oh that ...then what's the ginantonic scale?

[journeybear]

Pretty sure that when you combine the ginantonic and pentatonic scales in improper amounts and ratios you run the risk of venturing into the catatonic scale. The catatonic scale is rarely (if ever) used, as it produces rather lugubrious music that is very hard to dance to.

[billkilpatrick]

Oh that ...then what's the ginantonic scale?

in accordance with indian classical music, the "ginatonic" scale is performed in the evening at the end of a long and grueling day at the office, prior to the evening meal ... even if an extemporaneous practice session ensued at lunch.

[greg_tsam]

n - e - s - t - l - e - s (chocolate) ...

You lost me, Mr. Bill.

[JeffD]

In short, you remove the fourth and seventh note of the regular major scale. Its cool because its ambiguous as major or minor, and as to movement - it doesn't seek resolution or aim for any particular chord, (it doesn't cause the listener to yearn for anything, way a G7 chord makes you want a C chord). That is why it can be used equally well in a huge variety of contexts.

That is my understanding.

[billkilpatrick]

You lost me, Mr. Bill.

sorry - "retro" should be my middle name:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZi2og1YQJA

[JonZ]

In short, you remove the fourth and seventh note of the regular major scale. Its cool because its ambiguous as major or minor, and as to movement - it doesn't seek resolution or aim for any particular chord, (it doesn't cause the listener to yearn for anything, way a G7 chord makes you want a C chord). That is why it can be used equally well in a huge variety of contexts.

That is my understanding.

If it has the 3rd, how can it be major/minor ambiguous?
Why, then, the minor pentatonic scale?

I asked on another thread, other than as a one-scale jam solution, why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.

Is there more to it?

[journeybear]

You lost me, Mr. Bill.

It's an old jingle. You young whippersnappers wouldn't know about such things.

And I believe there is a 4 note in there, BTW!

So that's a bad example. The main riff to "My Girl" by The Temptations is a pentatonic scale. Major.

[greg_tsam]

It's an old jingle. You young whippersnappers wouldn't know about such things.

And I believe there is a 4 note in there, BTW!

So that's a bad example. The main riff to "My Girl" by The Temptations is a pentatonic scale. Major.

ha! That's the great thing about hanging with the old timers. They still call me young. Love it.

[JonZ]

I asked on another thread, other than as a one-scale jam solution, why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.

Is there more to it?

No one knows?????

[Earl Gamage]

Good question. I think if you can hear where to use the 4 & 7 you use the whole scale and if you play enough and are skilled enough you can change scales when the chord changes.

If you can't do that you can often still play a pretty good melody with just the pentatonic . Probably stating the obvious.

I guess that does not answer the question though, but thinking about it, changing pentatonic scales with the chords gets you a few more notes and is still safer (meaning avoiding probably dissonant notes) than using the whole scale.

I think post #23 is the best explanation.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

...why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.

Is there more to it?

For someone learning to improvise, using the moveable pentatonic scale that follows the chords is a decent approach that doesn't demand heavy investment in music theory up front. These need not be mutually exclusive, either. The moveable PT is a good stepping stone to learning an expanded improv technique. Think of power chords on the guitar. If you show someone that is learning to play guitar a power chord shape, and also show where to place the shape for the different chords on the chart, they can be playing songs pretty quickly. It has its limitations (as does a moveable PT approach), but it gets you playing stuff that can sound decent without having to learn about leading tones and modes and arpeggios and so forth. Then, as the need for other techniques grows, they can learn more about the theory if desired. The moveable PT is a subset of broader improvising theory, and I think it's one of the good entry points for learning to improvise.

Cheers
MRT

[JonZ]

I know that the pentatonic in the tune key has only "safe notes" to play over the I IV and V. Does the pentatonic when changed with each chord provide you with more safe notes to play on each chord?

I am thinking about the approach in The Mandolin Players Guide to Bluegrass Improvisation. The author talks about adding additional notes "spices" to the pentatonic scale. Is the idea that the pentatonic, in bluegrass, is the "meat". So you really want to master it first?

In other words, does working on pentatonic before diatonic help beginners avoid making a stew with too many spices and not enough meat? Or is it more just a matter of building your skills by adding prgressively more notes?

Or maybe a bit of both....

[greg_tsam]

Here's a demonstration of the pentatonic scale and our global recognition of it.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I know that the pentatonic in the tune key has only "safe notes" to play over the I IV and V. Does the pentatonic when changed with each chord provide you with more safe notes to play on each chord?

I'd argue that the movable PT is safer. With a fixed PT scale on the I chord, when the four chord comes around you have no IV root note, and the third note of the root PT scale will give you a Major seventh sound (i.e. E note over F major chord), which may not always be a desired sound. On the V chord, you lack a leading tone, which can lead to a bit of aimlessness; plus, the tonic note over the V chord can potentially sound off in some cases. Moveable PT avoids those situations. Whether this is a feature or a prescription for monotony can be debated, but I think it's, well, safe to say it's safer.

And yeah, I'd say the spice analogy is good, but it's not the only way to get from A to B and beyond. But it is a good way to look at a progressive method for learning tonal improvisation that gives good yields up front.

Cheers
MRT

[JonZ]

I suppose you could skip pentatonics all together and get right into diatonics, and still end up in the same place. But you are right about the up front motivation factor.

[JeffD]

If it has the 3rd, how can it be major/minor ambiguous?
Why, then, the minor pentatonic scale?

Ooops. Right you are. Its not major/minor ambiguous.

[JeffD]

Is the idea that the pentatonic, in bluegrass, is the "meat". So you really want to master it first?

In other words, does working on pentatonic before diatonic help beginners avoid making a stew with too many spices and not enough meat? Or is it more just a matter of building your skills by adding prgressively more notes?
....

While this may be true, pentatonics are were not conceived as pedegogical tools. The ambiguity as to tonal movement is the musical reason. They "stay in place".

[Don Julin]

...why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords, a la Don Julian, rather than learning arpeggios and scales? The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.

Is there more to it?

JonZ, yes there is more to it. What you may be missing here is that the technique of playing the changes by using pentatonic scales is not a replacement for learning chords and arpeggios, but an algorithm (Am I speaking your language yet?) where you are using elements of both scales and arpeggios. This approach is impossible if you don’t already know both scales and arpeggios. So as to not mislead any other readers, I am in no way suggesting that a working knowledge of major and minor scales and arpeggios in all keys is something that can be skipped over and replaced by a few pentatonic scales. That would be be ridiculous! As far as “The only benefit I see would be that a lot of people already know the pattern.” I am not sure what you are talking about. What is THE pattern? I believe you may be referring to technique used by our friend Nigel Tufnel from the band Spinal Tap.

Let's look at a song in G that uses the standard chords G,C,and D. The G major scale as we all know has the notes G,A,B,C,D,E,F#. The chord tones of G (us jazz guys don't call them arpeggios) are G,B,D. The chord tones of C are C,E,G, and The chord tones of D are D,F#,A. The object of playing the changes is to create melodies that follow the chord progression from one chord to the next. Making good melodies out of only 3 notes can be done but is difficult. By expanding each arpeggio to include 2 more notes (notes from the G scale) we open our possibilities for creating melody while staying close to the original triad.

The pentatonic scale for G major is G,A,B,D,E. If we want to get really technical and loose most of our readers we can call that a G6/9 arpeggio but I just think of it as G major. Making melody out of this group of notes is much easier because we tend to hear these notes together as demonstrated in the Bobby McFerrin video. For a fun project, get sheet music for a dozen or so very standard songs. This could include country classics, hymns, bluegrass songs, Motown or Reggae songs even classic rock songs. Analyse every melody note as to how it relates to the chord being played. You will find quite a few chord tones but notice how many times the 6th and the 2nd appear over major chords. So what do all of these musical forms all have in common? Good melodies.

So by playing the appropriate pentatonic scale for each chord we have a group of notes that is easy to create melody from and still sounds like the chord because it is an arpeggio with 2 additional scale tones. If you follow this theory (and practice your butt off) for the chords G, C, and D, you will end up with 3 groups of notes (pentatonic) that will function as arpeggios resulting in more melody.

Keep in mind that this is only the tip of the iceberg. For instance for a more Americana type of sound I may use a slurred or ambiguous third. For a bluesy sound I may add the flatted 7th, for a slick, 1970s kind of sound I may add the major 7th.

OK I don’t think I can add any more length to this post without running the risk of crashing a bunch of computers. So in answer to the original question “why would one learn to play pentatonics that change with the chords”, I have used 648 words to say……..Because it sounds good!

[JonZ]

So, when you play a G major scale over a G chord, would the C and F# typically be less melodic than the other 5 notes? (Since we are talking about asthetics, let's just say "less common in melodies".)

I am guessing that there is a hierarchy where the chord tones are the most common notes in the tunes we play, followed by the rest of the pentatonic notes, followed by the rest of the diatonic notes. With a few tweaks here and there for style. Does that sound about right?

By the way, I hope you understand that, when I say that something doesn't makes sense to me, I am not trying to say you are wrong. I just want to be clear about the part I don't understand. I appreciate your explanation.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I am guessing that there is a hierarchy where the triads are the most common notes in the tunes we play, followed by the rest of the pentatonic notes, followed by the rest of the diatonic notes.

And followed by the chromatic notes. Will vary by styles, of course.

[Don Julin]

JonZ, I understand that you are not passing judgement on this pentatonic concept or my take on it. Pentatonic scales are a bit of a hot button issue with me because they get written off so often as something only a teenager with 2 months experience would ever consider using. My opinion about pentatonic scales was shaped by listening to guys like Dawg and hearing how pentatonic melodies that follow chord changes with a great rhythmic drive and syncopation can create some of the mandolin music that inspired me to spend my life playing this little 8 string beast.

As far as the hierarchy of harmony notes you are on the right path but you may want to dig a little deeper. You seem like a guy that like to know the inter-workings of things. You may want to go all the way back to the 1500s and take a look at the basic rules of counterpoint. Now much has changed in 500 years but the concept is still alive. Back in those days the church had a lot to do with what notes we could play together and what notes we couldn't. Now we have the freedom to combine notes that would have resulted in being burned at the stake. In the beginning there was melody and it was good. Over time we started experimenting with 2 notes (counterpoint), and eventually 3 notes sounding at the same time. This is where the idea of triads was born. So chords are not just some random thing that happens when we play melody, chords are built from harmonic lines and intervals that sound good with the melody. Today, certain music forms like jazz have evolved to the point where the soloist or improviser is playing counterpoint or harmony lines to a melody that is no longer present.

No hard feelings and I hope some of this is helpful.