Import v.s. kit

[John Adrihan]

Just wondering what the thoughts on this were. Since I have never really heard or played any other mandolin besides my Kay and a Fender I was wondering what would play and sound better a $750 - $1000 range import (loar, kentucky, eastman, monroe) or a Siminoff or similar kit. Now this would take for granted that the kit was put together well. To put the question a little differently - would you end up with a better mandolin from a kit? Or a monetarily equal import?

[JEStanek]

I bet if you gave a kit to a talented builder who carved the plates well, and applied a very good finish (all for no extra charge) the kit would likely be superior. If you gave the kit to me, the $700-$1000 import would be superior. The quality of the instrument depends totally on the skill and quality of work that went into the construction, asuming the components you start with aren't defective.

Jamie

[Dick Hutchings]

My experience has been different. The few home built mandos I've played, scratch or kit built, have always been far superior to Kentuckies tone wise. They may not look as good but they sure sound better to me.

[mandotrout777]

I started a similar thread a while back. I ended up buying a KM1000 and although I've never tried a kit, I seriously doubt I would have ended up with a better sounding instrument.

I also bought a KM250 for my kid that sounds pretty amazing for the money. I don't know if a kit would beat it either. My dad was listening to me play it the other day and said it sounded about as good as my Weber. Goes to show you what a non-musician thinks of our expensive instruments (he had no idea what either one cost).

[JEStanek]

Like I said earlier, it depends upon the skill of the person doing the kit. If you're like me and your model airplanes look like they're ready for an NTSB investigation when I'm done, I bet a Kentucky or an Eastman would sound superior to a kit I constructed (certainly the finish and stain would look better than on my first kit made instrument).

If you have wood working skills, and the extra time, and have the tools and are willing to go slow, and ask a lot of questions and listen and implement the advice you recieve, I bet you might get a superior instrument. You're not gonna make a Gil, Dude, or Loar on your first kit either.

If youre ready to give it a go, I would recomend the International Violin A style kit. For about $150, you can get the kit, the Gooseneck scraper, spool clamps, and random orbital sander to build it. Stains and finish will be extra. This is probably the most cost effective way to build your first arch top mandolin. THe back and sides come attached already. You get the top and back to thickness, fit the tone bars, fit the neck (pre fretted), shape the headstock, inlay and finish as you desire, then set it up and play.

Jamie

[mandroid]

In this theoretical comparison, You would already have the woodworking shop and required tools, right?

[Dick Hutchings]

A shop and at least most of the tools and the money to buy the others as needed throughout the project. You can always buy more tools when you get your second started and then a few more on #3.

[swampy]

I had this dilemma a few years ago, and went with the kit. (a-style) The end result... it didn't quite look as good as an import, it didn't play quite as smooth (rough fret job), and the finish was a bit rough. The sound quality...awesome! I took a lot of time to get the plates graduated according to Simonoff's book, and that seems to make all the difference. I'm proud of it, and it's more special than plunking down bucks on an import. If you have the dsire and some talent, I'd say go for it. That being said, I'm the type of guy to try to build/repair anything myself, before I have someone else do it, historically the results have been mixed. You can see the mando in my avatar pic.

[Dick Hutchings]

The one in my Avatar is my first and is scratch built, refinished twice, rebound once, celluloid to cocobola. Got it too thin but it sounds and plays great. It needs a new top now and I can't decide whether to fix it or hang it on the wall when I get my next 2 done. If nothing else, I learned a lot about setup, carving and finishing. As you can see, I'd do it again and again. Can't wait to start #4.

[Jack Roberts]

Kit.

[bmac]

"In this theoretical comparison, You would already have the woodworking shop and required tools, right?"

In my opinion the above is not a relevant question.... With the International Violin kit you can do it on any firm surface. My workshop was in the kitchen... The tools required are minimal and you can get by with no power equipment at all. It is a beginners mando builders kit and as such it is a fine introduction to the craft of building instruments with hand tools. When I built two the only power equipment I used was a cheap Dremel... it was a convenience but I could have got by without it.

The builder has a lot to gain (learn) and this is a great way to get some experience and make mistakes at minimal expense. I would suggest though that a first time builder would benefit by using the
Seminoff book on mando building, as his instructions are much more complete than those with the IV kit.

Bart

[pelone]

I have built both the F and A IV kit. I do not know if the F's are still available. I left the F unstained, blonde and it came with a nice flamed back, the neck was reasonable as far figure and the sides had a nice grain. I left it unstained and finished it after first stringing it up to determine if I should tweak the top a bit. I did not cover the headstock with ebony because I liked the unadorned look. When I have had it at jams I often receive comments from folks who are surprised that it was built from a kit. If you have enough skill to slap your back pockets of your jeans with both hands at the same time you have enough skill to assemble a kit. And--you will have the ability to say with pride..."I did that". I believe Ken even has a kit that comes partially assembled.

[Lefty Luthier]

I always find it interesting when someone states that a Kentucky has great sound quality. On several occasions, I have had potential customers visit carrying a Kentucky and when they play along with me using one of my custom instruments, they are amazed at the difference in both sound quality and sustain. Sure makes it easier to get a good commission when such comparisons are made. I would always vote for the Siminoff kits over any Pac Rim instrument since they are made to a consistent quality standard.

[John Adrihan]

So here is the deal. I want to upgrade to a better mandolin this fall/winter. I am only going to be able to spend in that $750 to $850 range. No I can't go to $1000 and I really want a F style. I know that you can get more value from a A but I want an F. They just look so cool to me. So.... That is the basis of my question. I have been lurking and searching and calling different places that sell the imports and have heard so many different opinions. So I was just wondering if I could make one that would be better, I have tools. I have built several rifles (flintlocks and rollingblocks) but metal finsihing is more my expertise than the wood carving. So to highkack my own thread, If a kit is no the way to go what is the best sounding Import for $750 to $850.
Thanks

[pelone]

The Jade was a pretty cool instrument when they were available, you may discover one in the classifieds. However, the various Breedloves are wonderful. How about saving up a bit and investing in either a build from Mowery or Paul Lestock who both are members of the Cafe?

I still think that an IV F is within your capacity and with your skills and access to Mandolin Cafe you have the support of the best builders while others of us are very free with our advice.

[allenhopkins]

...what is the best sounding Import for $750 to $850?
Thanks

Well, you'll get a lot of responses. Quite a bit of support for The Loar LM-600 which is around $750. Kentucky KM-675 would be in the same range. i'm a big Eastman fan, but their 515 is $1K new and that's their lowest-priced F-style, I believe. You probably could find a used one, which of course means no warranty -- if that's a major consideration for you.

[Steven Clarkson]

I'm assured that many folks could send you to .WAV or MP3 where you could get a good assessment of the sound differences. I could send you something with the Dickinson One in question. Each mandolin is different. The one you build will be a one of kind. I wish you blessings,

Steven

[Caleb]

As someone who has built a mandolin from a kit, and also bought one, I can say that both are a wonderful adventure. But the fact is that when it comes to building, you really have no clue what you're getting until it's finished and all (or most) of your money is gone, and a ton of your time is gone. I would venture a guess that many here who have built from a kit, thinking it would end up as their main instrument, either ended up buying a different mandolin or playing what they already had. That was my exact experience, anyway. I ended up with a nice instrument, but it sounds and feels like a guy who didn't really know what he was doing built it. My Stew-Mac kit cost me over $200 of my money, and a lot of my time, and while it's a decent instrument, it's mostly become wall art in the end.

And I think that is where the craftsmanship of some of the Asian builders is greatly taken for granted. Kentucky, Eastman, et al, are not just building junk that "will do" until you can afford a Gibson, but they are building really good instruments by people who know how to build instruments. In my experience, it's not as easy as it seems to build a good instrument.

My advice is two-fold: Yes, building for yourself is a wonderful experience that has its own rewards; you'll have something that you built that you can (hopefully) be proud of; but it's also worth a lot to take your money around town and try out instruments that have been built by people who build instruments all day long for a living. If there ever was a Golden Age of acoustic instruments, then this has to be it. The good ones are out there and can be had for a lot less and $1000 if you look hard.

Either way, I wish you the best, but do count the cost (time and money) of building for yourself. If I'd spent all the time learning to play better that I spent building that kit, I'd probably be better off. But then again, I'd have always wondered. Good luck.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

What Caleb said really resonates with me. Building an instrument, whether from scratch or from a kit, is something that I would strongly recommend to each and every musician. But I would caution anyone against building an instrument simply as a cheaper way to get an an instrument of your choice. You will most likely end up spending more money than you have budgeted yourself for, and the end result may be less than what you had expected when you started out. On the other hand, the Asian imports are so well done these days and priced so attractively that, unless you already have a few builds under your belt, you are unlikely to match them at both price and quality.

My advice? Buy yourself a used F-style Asian import, spend time playing it, and then down the road, get a kit and take all the time you need building it. At that point, if you're happy with the result, you can probably sell the import and get most of your money back.

[Stephen Perry]

So much would depend on the kit builder. I suspect I could build a kit in a manner that would exceed the performance of the imports mentioned. However, I'm currently making 4 violins, out of a string of many, and am used to voicing and otherwise dealing with instruments.

There's really no difference between a finished mandolin and a kit, except when the end user gets the pieces. All manufacturing essentially makes "kits" and then finishes up. So would a "kit" purchased have materials and design equal to or better than equivalent finished imported instruments? I don't know, but I suspect one could get a kit with lesser quality, or get one with higher quality. And the same is true of the imported lines mentioned. Different designs, different quality of wood, slightly different construction practices. So the pile of pieces from kit or import differ before the assembly starts.

One kit maker graduates to the numbers, builds strongly, sprays on nitro. Another takes equivalent materials and carefully works the plates to an acoustically driven model, assembles with hot hide glue, uses a complex finishing system intended to give a superior acoustic result. I doubt the results are the same. Without getting into the advantages, disadvantages, and myths of those items.

I have not seen a kit made to the quality of the newer Loar, Eastman, or better Kentucky (have to distinguish which source/model) mandolins. I have heard some that are loud and boomy, much loved by their owners. Some that are very tight and over built. A couple that were very nice. None that exceeded the performance of the better examples of the named imports.

New Loar 600 at close to $700 - excellent buy. New Eastman 515 at about $900 (at least here, maybe they're $1000 somewhere). Kentucky 805 maybe a great one. All very nice and much less time.

I have a hard time thinking of a novice doing a F kit, at least with binding.

[Matt the Mead Maker]

My stew-mac F5 sounds way better than the $400ish Kentucky I used to own. Sounds better than my MidMo, too. The stew-mac kit is the only mando I use anymore.

However:
1) I had help from a luthier friend on certain parts (setting the neck, routing the binding channel, and cutting MOP inlay).
2) I spent about 400 Hours on the project, including building custom tools.
3) I bought some specialty tools such as finger planers and micro-chisles.

If I hadn't been interested in learning how to build instruments, it would've been a waste. I'm currently builing a guitar and will do an H4 mandola next. Then, I'll build a 3-pointer and an F2. Then...

[Ed Goist]

My stew-mac F5 sounds way better than the $400ish Kentucky I used to own. Sounds better than my MidMo, too. The stew-mac kit is the only mando I use anymore.

However:
1) I had help from a luthier friend on certain parts (setting the neck, routing the binding channel, and cutting MOP inlay).
2) I spent about 400 Hours on the project, including building custom tools.
3) I bought some specialty tools such as finger planers and micro-chisles.

If I hadn't been interested in learning how to build instruments, it would've been a waste. I'm currently builing a guitar and will do an H4 mandola next. Then, I'll build a 3-pointer and an F2. Then...

Stew-Mac F5 Kit: $540
Luthier Consult (if you don't know one): ~$500 (minimum?)
Personal Labor (400 hours @ Let's say $20/hr): $8,000
Specialty tools (estimate): $100
Total Cost: $9,140

[Martian]

I have heard wonderful mid to low pac rim inst. and I am glad they are available int the price range for people who cannot spring for a major name in the industry, (many). I have built 3, all from scratch. I had my highest hopes that my efforts would at least yield me an instrument in one of those ranges, Earlier, I thought I came close, and was satisfied with my build, this year in Charlotte, I had the oppertunity to play 2 mid grade Kentuckys, and 1 Eastman, I was so pleased to be able to say, that I thoght my shop build was at least as good as the 3, that I had decided were very good insts, and still rate as great bang for the buck. Incidently, i ordered a Stew-Mac kit, that I still have, I screwed up so many of the parts, (carved the top to thin,replaced, carved the neck too thin, replaced) and then decided to use the kit as templates, it is still unassembled. Go for a kit. The comercial builds cosmetics are better, my tone volume, and overall sound are just a bit better, Very satisfying. Good luck Oh , I also thi9nk my inst. in the past couple years have oppened up a bit.

[CES]

I think Steve's point about the quality of the kits varying is one to consider heavily. The IV kits are basically the woods used in Saga's lines (ie, Rover, Kentucky). It's my understanding that Stew Mac and Siminoff tend to have better quality woods in their kits. All have varying degrees of completion (ie, some come pretty close to done, others require more work; I can't remember which ones, though it's been discussed on the forum before). Of course, the latter 2 are more expensive.

It sounds like you're pretty skilled, and by number 2 or 3 or 4 you probably could turn one out that's better than the average pac rim, but I'd say that for build # one there'd be a little luck involved to hit the jackpot, so to speak. It would be a great experience, but may also end up costing you more in time (and maybe a few specialty tools, though you probably have what you need in your shop already), with no guarantee that you'll end up with a better mandolin. That doesn't mean it's not necessarily worth it, but if your goal is primarily to have a better playing mandolin quickly it may not be.

Steve's recommendations regarding F-styles in your range are good ones. It's hard to say for sure, though, because there's some variability within each of those mandolins' lines...a very few are either great or stinkers, most are pretty good. The only way to know is to play as many as you can, or call someone like Steve, or some of the cafe sponsors (Mandolin Store and Elderly will play for you unless they're unusually busy, and I've gotten good advice from JDMC as well) and have them help you pick out the best of their stock.

Also, to file under advice you've already stated you don't want: I recently picked up a used Silver Angel Econo model (in essentially new condition)...it was hard to let go of the scroll, but I'm really glad I did...the thing's amazingly better than my Kentucky 675S (which is not bad for the money) and my Fender (which is more of an A/E, anyway). My wife, who doesn't play strings but is the musician of the family, can easily hear the difference in their respective tones. It was at the upper end of your budget but under 1000, and it's a keeper and would be a huge upgrade from what you're playing now...of course, some patience would be involved with classifieds checking. NFI, btw, and the same could probably be said of used Weber Gallatins, Gibson A-9s and the Breedlove Quartz line (which used is well within your budget).

Good luck with your decision, and I hope you end up satisfied with your new mandolin regardless of your choice! (and sorry for the unsolicited advice)

[Cheryl Watson]

A kit is better compared to most imports IF you make it right. Takes longer though--haha!