Emando or "kids electric guitar" for 8 year old

[usqebach]

Thanks for all the great comments. Didn't see the 5-string 'dola coming at me, but that's way cool!

Actually, one thing on which I was hoping for some feedback is this:

After I got back into this stuff (fiddle, mandolin, etc) I am now recognizing just what a wide range of instruments are tuned in fifths. Without too much dislocation, one can pick up tenors (banjo and guitar), mandolin, mandola, octave mandolin and bouzouki, citterns and other such variations on the same theme. Of course the fiddle, my home instrument is in the mix as well.

The standard guitar tuning is such an odd beast, with 5 strings in fourths and one in a third (I think!). And what's up with that? However, for a long scale instrument, it seems that it creates a great deal of variety of chord options given the short stretches. So it seems to really work for that "voice." Yet if one learns the guitar, the patterns based on that tuning don't create a lot of other easy transfers to other instruments. I guess what I'm saying is that there must be something about that tuning and scale length; there's probably a reason why there isn't an "Octave Mandolin Hero" video game!

So back to the point, if I nudge her to the e-mando, am I opening up a gateway to a world of different instruments and voicings, or sending her down a pathway where she will be perpetually "off balance" and out of the mainstream if she wants to get into the longer scale instruments, especially if she wants to play rock music like everyone else?

What I've done so far is to buy a mandobird from the classifieds for $175 (not bad!). On her birthday in August, we'll take it to the local guitar shop and let her play around with both it and the kids guitar. If she picks the guitar, I now have a mandobird for me!

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Another option with the bird: you can tune it like the top four strings of a guitar, which is one tuning variant of the Brasilian Cavaquinho, which has just a slightly shorter scale than the mandolin. That way she might find it less of a reach for chords compared to either mandolin tuning or a longer scaled kids guitar, and transitioning to guitar later will be a snap -- and you'll still get an emando out of the deal, just later.

[catmandu2]

Recall also that folks commonly employ "Chicago tuning" (DGBE - top four strings of standard guitar tuning) on banjo, bouzouki, and whatever else...and is also pretty standard for baritone ukulele. Standard tuning (EADGBE) is but one way to tune a guitar--lots of instruments worldwide employ variants of this.

Reiterating, IME, having a guitar foundation makes everything else easier. I've always experienced all the other stringed instruments as simply a portion of the guitar. We'll have to mention David Lindley's well known axiom here: "it's all just a guitar" (or some such). I'm sure that mine is a common experience: after growing up with guitar beginning at age 11 (albeit, classical guitar, which makes folk fingerpicking styles easy), I picked up many other stringed instruments and styles of playing very quickly and easily: many banjo styles, dulcimers, dobro, ukuleles, CFAD and DGBE bouzouki, oud, saz, charango, 5ths-tuned, fiddle, and of course bass. Going from guitar to 5ths is easier, IMO, than going from 5ths to guitar. Albeit, the asymmetric tuning of guitar is not as intuitive as 5ths. But the broader harmonic range makes the guitar more interesting. Going to a 5ths-tuned instrument is fun after guitar--it's refreshing to refine the broad range of patterns of guitar to the fewer and symmetric chord positions and scale patterns of 5ths. But the trade-off is that 5ths-tuned lack the harmonic range of the guitar.

Earlier, we discussed that when you approach strings this way, you can "play anything you touch" with strings. While 5ths allows you to know the fingerboard and switch between mandos--big and small--and tenor banjo/guitar (I'll leave fiddle and the orchestral strings out of it, since that's another animal), a similar approach to guitar can enable facility among many types of stringed instruments. Consider: altering standard guitar tuning to open D, G, or DADGAD, is about as simple as cross-tuning your fiddle. The possibilities with guitar are great, and not necessarily more difficult, given a foundation with guitar.

Regarding your concern about musical context: another reason why guitar is so popular--other than its association with rock--is because it is an eminently versatile instrument. I enjoy my 5ths-tuned and play a lot of fiddle these days. But before I did that, I played many styles of guitar: rock, classical, flamenco, blues, and any number of folk styles and variety of alternate tunings. But all you need is one tuning, for diverse worlds of instruments and styles--from easy, lush song accompaniment by strumming a few easy chords, to Albeniz, Bach, Chopin...and Zappa; strats, archtops, resonators, 12-strings, flamencos...there is tremendous variety in guitars. All things being equal, I think a person has more potential for musical expression, and a life with music, by studying guitar over mando.

Mando is great, but guitar is a mutha that can do it all.

[CES]

Cat, I agree...guitar is much more versatile in general. Sure, Sam Bush can play anything he wants on mando and make it sound great, but there aren't too many folks like him out there (and even he uses multiple mandos/tools).

Mando remains my current favorite, and I'd like for it to eventually be my "main" instrument. But, the guys I normally play with tend to like country/classic rock/pop (I know, I know, I need to find a different crowd, but I really enjoy playing with these folks !). There's definitely a voice for mando there, but it takes some work to get the right voicing at times. And, sometimes, songs just require the more versatile range the guitar provides. I try to transpose everything we play to mando, but on the spot transposition is tough for me unless it's from G to A...I'm working on the theory and getting better, but gotta long way to go.

There are a gagillion guitar players out there, which is part of the reason I love playing mando so much. But, if I could only play one instrument, it'd be guitar for the versatility.

OP, I think your decision to ultimately let her choose is the correct one...I love my Mandobird, by the way, and will occasionally come home to find it plugged in because my 9 year old loves the size/look, too. BTW, I'm making him do piano

[catmandu2]

Having said all of that, the most important element in all of this is ear training, and curiosity. And perhaps most importantly: a lot of musical learning can be done with a guitar alone--harmony, counterpoint, bass lines, orchestration; for musical pedagogy, developing musicianship, versatility, and potential for musical expression, guitar is excellent. My flamenco mentor, Rene Heredia, said the guitar is "a miniature piano."

[roscoestring]

Having said all of that, the most important element in all of this is ear training, and curiosity.

Isn't that what killed the cat(mandu2)?

[catmandu2]

Isn't that what killed the cat(mandu2)?

I'll refer you to post #9

[usqebach]

This has really turned into a cool thread! I'm learning a lot about all the various possibilities I did not know existed. FWIW, my fiddle is cross-tuned 80% of the time, and I knew about DADGAD, but not much else. I never knew of that Chicago tuning.

I detect other instrument purchases in my future! Like I think I can even play what I've got...

[catmandu2]

I detect other instrument purchases in my future! Like I think I can even play what I've got...

Hey, I'm glad I could help with that..

Sorry for the hijack; check out some of these oud tunings. If you think this is variety, there's a compendium of "old-time" banjo tunings online that's about 20 pages long. Note that there is much use of "portions of the guitar" (EADG..), etc., but the guitar probably derived its tuning from the oud, rather than vice-versa.


Arabic oud tunings
G A D G C – the most common tuning for 5 double strings
F A D G C F – a very common tuning for 6 double strings
C F A D G C – another very common tuning for 11 strings (5 double strings and the lowest string is single)
D G A D G C – an older tuning still used by many
E A D G C – a tuning for 5 strings (Syria, Palestine and Lebanon)
B E A D G C F – a tuning for 7 strings
G C D G C F – an alternate tuning
[edit] Turkish oud and cümbüş tunings
E A B E A D or D A B E A D – Old Turkish, Armenian, and Greek Tuning
C# F# B E A D or B F# B E A D – classical Turkish tuning and variant
B E A D G C – nother possible Turkish tuning (Note: Turkish classical music is written transposed, so that the above tuning would be notated as F# B E A D G[citation needed])
A B E A D G – standard cümbüş tuning (written D E A D G C)


Regarding "Chicago tuning," I think it's generally employed in lieu of an instrument's traditional tuning where a guitar player lacks knowledge or expertise on said instrument, or when a guitarist prefers not to learn another tuning and fingering system. It's often employed on plectrum banjo, for example. My understanding is that it became the standard for Greek bouzouki, supplanting DAD and CFAD, in the 60s so that guitarists could have facility with them. I've read that some jazz bassists even tuned up some cellos EADG (as a bass) to render themselves some facility with it.

[Jim MacDaniel]

These various Cavaquinho tunings should also work with the mandolin were one so inclined:
DGBD (most common tuning)
DABE ("Ancient Portuguese Tuning")
GGBD
AAC#E
DGBE (Similar to Cat's note above regarding "Chicago Tuning", I think this one is typically employed by guitarists who can't think in Cavaquinho)

[catmandu2]

And here's a link to that compendium of 5-string tunings: http://www.acousticmusic.org/Banjo-Tuning-sp-81.html ...of which there appear to be somewhere around a hundred or more variations. Granted, often it's only a single string being altered even only a semitone, and perhaps for only one song in the repertoire. But it illustrates how far one can go with tuning variations.

This is where music stylistic ADHD begins to become problemmatic , (and where 5ths-tuning begins to look very appealing).

[catmandu2]

Something occurred to me today during a discussion elsewhere regarding ragtime and playing technique; (in this particular discussion, the context was specific to banjo 5-string fingerpicking style versus 4-string plectrum style and mandolin flatpicking). But it made me think of discussions here that ensued from the question, "What's a better instrument for . . . -- mandolin or guitar?" It occurred to me that the major drawback of mandolin playing--for the aspiring musician--is that it is flatpicked almost exclusively. This is a bit like, when learning to swim, only learning the side-stroke...(a poor analogy, but perhaps evocative). Fingerstyle guitar, piano, fiddle, doublebass, even banjo -- all involve rigorous training of the right hand. IMO, this is an extremely valuable element in string playing, but also any type of instrument playing, not only for righ hand deployment, but also for musicianship (polyphonic pedagogy). I am biased--having started off with classical guitar when young--but I suggest folks consider this when thinking about starting their kid on an instrument.

IMO, if someone is starting out young for the first time on strings, I recommend they opt for an instrument that involves rigorous training of both hands, even if it is drums...

[catmandu2]

Here's the thread, btw, since there's mando content and could be of interest to some here: http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/182791