Celtic chord progressions

[John Bertotti]

Can someone lead me to some Celtic chord progressions? Everything I've found is notes mostly not chords.

[danb]

Just play lots of Ds


Actually it's a little more complicated- you need to be aware of modal harmony if you want to really get a hang of it. The D-scale in different modes is used on a majority of the tunes, learning the major, mixolidian, and the 2 common minor modes will get you far.

[Avi Ziv]

Chris Smith's book has useful ideas

Celtic Backup

Avi

[steve V. johnson]

Hey John,

I've sent you a PM.

stv

[John Bertotti]

Never have I opened such a large can of worms. Seemed like a simple little thing I wanted to do now I see I got my work cut out for me. Looks like fun! Thanks!

[EdSherry]

I second the recommendation for Chris Smith's "Celtic Backup" book/CD, but it can be pretty heavy going in spots.

Many (but not all) tunebooks have (someone's idea of) a chord progression corresponding to the tune. In my experience, some of them feel "right," others do not.

"Captain Fiddle" (Ryan Thompson) has a chord book (only) for some 1400 traditional tunes available here (NFI):

http://www.captainfiddle.com/chordencyclop.html

Again, don't take his chords as "gospel."

I recall reading something along the following lines in a thread here some while back:

"In bluegrass, the chord progression is fixed, the "skeleton" of the tune is roughly laid out, and lead players improvise a melodic line around the progression/skeleton. In Celtic music, the melody is fixed, the lead players ornament the melody slightly, and the chord players improvise a chord progression around the melody."

That rings very true for a lot of the DADGAD guitar players I know.

[John Bertotti]

I was absent form this forum for a long while. I missed that EdSherry but it does make sense when I think about it. I will check out both the books. I do have the Thomas Ohmson book but it is a lot of info real fast. I have read it a couple times and pick something up each time but putting it all together is difficult.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey, John,

What's the "Thomas Ohmson" book?

thanks,

stv

[EdSherry]

Steve -- Ohmson's book is "Music Theory for Modern Mandolin." Available from AcuTab:

http://www.elderly.com/also/books/items/172-1.htm

(NFI.)

It's not primarily directed toward Celtic music, which is why I'd recommend the Chris Smith book (which is, but conversely which is directed to all accompanying instruments, not just mandolin).

[steve V. johnson]

Thanks, Ed, much appreciated.

stv

[John Bertotti]

Steve the Ohmson book covers what you sent me but what you sent took it a step farther so I could see past the theory. Now I need to find a way to burn all this info into my short and long term memory and apply it! I iwill be checking out the other recommendations also. I am a bit of a book worm..

[Dylan Hatch]

I have a favor to ask - Steve, could you send me the information you sent the OP? I have a few books I am saving up to buy(now including the Mandolin Theory book mentioned earlier). However, I am in the "saving up" stage at the moment.

In the meantime, I am very interested in learning more about the accompaniment side of Celtic music - I am learning tunes which is both fun and good, and want to balance that out.

Thank you very much in advance - I have enjoyed reading your input on many topics over the past few years.

[steve V. johnson]

Sorry, folks, it appears that I should not have posted these.

My mistake.

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Sorry, folks, it appears that I should not have posted these.

My mistake.

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Sorry, folks, it appears that I should not have posted these.

My mistake.

stv

[zoukboy]

Hello John,

I agree with the quote Ed posted and I may have even said something like that in a previous thread here. But I would like to caution against thinking of the harmonic activity in Irish and other "Celtic" musics as "chord changes".

Usually when people talk about chord changes, as in most American musics, they are referring to harmony that is part of the structure of a song or tune. This isn't really the case in the musics that are called "Celtic". The structure of the music is usually just the melody and the harmony is implicit within that. Accompaniment in these musics is still relatively new and usually improvised (when it's good!) and so the challenge is to hear that implied harmony and to actualize it in real time. Because of this I and a lot of other people who play and teach Irish music try to stay away from sources that give "the chords".

Instead of chord changes, there are cadences typical of the 4 modes used in Irish music. Once you learn these cadential tendencies then the whole series of harmonic gestures used will be clear to you. It's not that complex, there is a finite set of data to memorize and practice and then it becomes part of your harmonic vocabulary on your instrument.

I second the recommendation of Chris Smith's book. It is by far the best on the subject.

Good luck!

[IndianaTim]

I've been playing guitar for more than 30 years, and Trad music for about 5 years, and to this day, guitar accompaniment of Trad mystifies me.

With that said, the first bit of sense I can share is that if you're trying to accompany on guitar, follow the bodhran player (assuming the bodhran player is good, like Stv's wife, and she's playing the bodhran, as I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for chasing a married woman). The point being, if you don't get the hand holding the pick doing what it's supposed to do, nothing you do with your other hand is going to matter because it'll be all wrong.

The next bit of sense is that no matter how your guitar is tuned or capo'ed, be sure you know which open strings are in the key of the tune--the tonic and/or the 5th. Chances are, if you don't fret those strings and play them a lot, whatever else you do will have a 50/50 chance of still sounding okay, even if played as just a passing chord.

Finally, refer to my first statement. I could be totally wrong about all of this, except maybe the part about Stv's wife.

Tim

[John Bertotti]

Some of you need to move to Sioux Falls I need an instructor!

This has become one of the threads I'll be saving!

Thanks everyone!

[EdSherry]

Niles hit it exactly on the head:

"The structure of [Celtic] music is usually just the melody and the harmony is implicit within that. Accompaniment in these musics is still relatively new and usually improvised (when it's good!) and so the challenge is to hear that implied harmony and to actualize it in real time."

Whether one calls that "chord changes" or "chord progressions" or "cadences" or "implied harmony" or "implied chords" strikes me as more a matter of semantics than anything else.

[One music dictionary I have defines "cadence" as "a progression of (at least) two chords that conclude a phrase, section, or piece of music." That's fine, but what about the chords that precede the "conclusion" of the musical phrase?]

I also fully agree with Niles' comment about staying away from those who insinuate they have "THE chords" to a traditional Celtic tune. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with suggesting "A" set of chord changes, but to suggest that that set of changes is "THE" correct one -- and that others are therefore less worthy of consideration -- ignores Niles' point that "the tradition" is largely (though not entirely) unaccompanied -- and that much of what historically passed for accompaniment was wrong-headed (just listen to the ham-handed piano 'accompaniment' behind some of Michael Coleman's recordings to see what I mean).

That said, "you have to walk before you can run." There is a lot to be said for:

(a) immersing yourself in the music,

(b) finding out what chord changes/cadences others [especially good role models] are using -- whether [ideally] by listening intently or [if need be] by resorting to chord charts given in tune books (as a starting place only!);

(c) learning to recognize "common" changes/cadences and link them to the musical phrases in the tune [as Niles says, they tend to come up again and again in the tradition];

(d) learning to "hear" in your head what you think works musically (and what you think doesn't!) with tunes you are familiar with;

(e) experimenting with changes/cadences to new tunes. and

(f) getting constructive criticism from those whose "ears" you respect.


Just as the ii-V-I progression is a common jazz cadence that recurrs over and over again in hundreds (thousands) of jazz tunes, so the I-IV-V-I (e.g., D-G-A-D) progression or the I-bVII-I (e.g., G-F-G) progression or the ii-I-ii (e.g., Em-D-Em) progression recur again and again in Celtic music. You just need to get them into your head so that you can recognize them when they do.


Unfortunately, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." One thing I can't stress enough is to discipline yourself to 'lay out' on a new tune and just listen until you know how it goes. So-called "accompanists" who figure "I know it's a reel in D, so I'll just play my standard D reel progression" are one of my pet peeves at sessions.

[zoukboy]

Niles hit it exactly on the head:
<snip>
I also fully agree with Niles' comment
<snip>
[as Niles says, they tend to come up again and again in the tradition];

Ed,

I think you have me confused with someone else....... ;-)

[Bertram Henze]

Acompanying with the OM, I like to think of a repository of double stops for a given scale rather than chords. Find the scale first, then jump around in the corresponding repository. E.g. sometimes a melody player might call out "A minor", but it still can be dorian or aeolian. After that it's easy. We are lucky to have a limited number of scales in Irish music and a consequent fifths tuning.

Example: On a D major (=ionian) scale, my repository is x00x, x22x, x45x, x57x, 22xx, 44xx and sometimes 66xx (the last one is a bold break out of the scale, but can sound good).
My repositories are purely experimental, don't ask me about any theory behind them (which probably exists, but...).

About there being no absolute chords - often, there is a certain local routine defined by the regular guitar players in a session, and you have no chance doing fancy things, such as shifting the scale type (any given tune appears in a new light if you, say, shift from A dorian to A aeolian for a short moment).

Since the roles of melody and chords are reversed between American and Irish music - shouldn't someone invent breaks for the acompaniment players?

Bertram

[IndianaTim]

Perhaps in trad, they should be called "chord digressions"?

[EdSherry]

Roger -- Oops! My bad ...

At least I attributed your comment to someone else who knows a thing or two about mandolins ... :-)

Maybe it's because your name and Niles' name both have five letters. (That must be it ... naah!) Those of us with short names tend to get confused easily.

PS -- I thought of editing my earlier post to fix the mistake. But while that might be the EASY way ... [wait for it ... a little more ...]

It wouldn't be The COWBOY Way! (With apologies to 'Ranger' Doug Green and Riders in the Sky.)

[POB]

Perhaps in trad, they should be called "chord digressions"?

That's excellent, Tim!

Since the roles of melody and chords are reversed between American and Irish music - shouldn't someone invent breaks for the acompaniment players?

Bertram, sounds to me like you just have! I like it.

[zoukboy]

I wanted to clarify my earlier comments a bit. If you were to ask a bluegrass player "what are the chord changes to Shady Grove", he/she would have a ready answer for you--one that you could utilize with confidence. Ask a jazz player "what are the chords for Giant Steps?" He/she'd either tell you or refer you to a fakebook. In either case the chords are set either by tradition or by the act of composition. The same can't really be said of the vast majority of Irish trad tunes (there are exceptions in recent compositions). If you were to ask me "what are the chords to Drowsy Maggie?" I might say the normal Dorian cadence i-VII-i (Em-D-Em) with a v-i (Bm-Em) turnaround, and even though that might be very helpful those chords are not part of the structure of the music as defined either by tradition (though that could change) or composition.

Here's another way to look at it: in the first two examples, Shady Grove and Giant Steps, what happens if you play the melody without any chords? Shady Grove would still work but I think we've all grown accustomed to hearing chords in bluegrass so it would sound bare at the least--we would notice something missing. In the case of Giant Steps it would probably sound weird since the changes are part of the structure of the tune, and in fact they are what generations of jazz musicians have found such a challenge to solo over. If one were to solo over those changes without the changes being played then those changes would only be implied by the melody.

With Irish music, though, you can take away the chordal accompaniment and guess what? It's still complete (some would say better without!). It still sounds natural. It doesn't need accompaniment to be complete because that was how it was played for a long, long time.

Also, there really aren't any set changes for Irish tunes because good accompanists will constantly vary what they are playing with chord substitutions happening frequently. Because that is the practice I think it's more helpful to think of the harmonic information as implied rather than explicit.

The approach to Irish trad back-up that I think works the best is improvised counterpoint (see: Finn, Alec), in which the chordal information is only partially played or suggested. The approach that I think works the least is block chords on guitar, piano or bouzouki. The thing that I was cautioning against was the idea that Irish music be approached as we would approach other musics. It's really different.