Need a pickup or mic for a gig!

[herbsandspices]

My band plays almost exclusively unplugged, however, we are playing at Schuba's (a mostly rock venue, but has acoustic music as well) here in Chicago in a few weeks, and I'm going to need to plug in! EEK! I've read all the topics on mics/pickups here, but my decision is still unclear, so I'm starting my own thread 'bout 'em!

SO, I want to buy something that's removable, small, and nice!

-I have a Breedlove Quartz FF (and LOVE IT).
-Something that can clip on my instrument, ie not on a stand
-I'd prefer something that I can keep packed in my mandolin case.
-I don't have a budget
-Mic vs. Pickup - I dunno! I don't want to get feedback (Schuba's is pretty loud), or pick up too much of the rest of the instruments.
-Hopefully doesn't have to be amped, ie can be plugged right into the board

Here is what I'm considering (and by no means final):

Pickups:
Schertler Dyn-M
LR Baggs Radius

Mics:
Audio-Technica ATM350
Audio-Technica PRO 70
DPA 4061-BM
K&K Silver Bullet

Thanks in advance! I don't know a lot about technical sound stuff, since I've not needed to know it until now, so I'm just looking for your all's opinions!

Best,
john

[mandroid]

I have a Schertler Dyn M, sticks on with a clay like putty, it works well,XLR plugs into a Mic cable
and the Mic cable into the stage snake with all the other microphones
but it stows in its own wooden box - so nicely I wouldn't suggest an alternative.
made by the same folks that make the coo-coo clock boxes.

so probably not going to fit in your case, too,
a separate bag or suitcase with cables
is a normal part of amplified music , anyhow.

adding : acoustic instruments are still subject to feed back loops with the monitors
or house sound gear, up loud enough to ring the soundboard with a pickup attached to it.

a magnetic pickup on a solid body , well, that's why they were invented, still feedback reducing
'till you hold them in front of the speaker.

[Albert Whiting]

K&K Mandolin Twin. It is by far the most natural sounding pickup I have ever used. I think it runs 125.00 or so.

[jim_n_virginia]

I play 99% of the time into a mic but every blue moon I will find myself in a situation where I am competing with drums and electric guitar in a bar like atmosphere (noisy!)and I use a Macintyre Feather plugged into a Fishman Pro Platinum EQ and I can get a barely decent sound but at those volumes who can tell a difference.

It was very easy to install and when not using it you'd never know it's inside my mandolin.

[herbsandspices]

Thanks guys!

Mandroid, I'm assuming if I forego carrying the Dyn-M in its wooden box, it's small enough to fit in your average mando case compartment?

john

[mandroid]

You still need a Mic cable to plug it into the house board for sound.
that's not going to go have in the case too is it?
the thin meter or so, of cable is long enough only when I am sitting next to my amp.
there is an XLR plug , the wire and the dynamic microphone transducer . the transducer stickum continues to be useful, left on the pickup because I stick it to a piece of plastic, when I'm not putting it on the mandolin.

of you have a rectangular case with a big enough compartment, maybe , one thats shaped and just under the neck, probably not.

C Dyn S is the same mechanism , goes inside the instrument, installed, would solve the problem.
the end pin jack is balanced TRS [aka stereo], and then the durable
XLR < TRS cable does the interconnect like a charm.

YMMV

[UnityGain]

why do you need to plug in? Drums? Electric Guitars? Of just a noisy bar? Are you used to playing into a mic on a stand with it? Do you already play out and are having trouble or are you worried about this new gig? Is this your first time being non-acoustic? Will there be a sound man or will you mix yourself? Monitors? All of these make a difference. If your just worried about a noisy bar ans not noisy instruments (drums, electric gitars, deaf guitarists that need tons of monitor) you might be better off with a clip on mic, the sound quality and naturalness will be much better. But if your facing truely loud envoronment, a pick up is the way to go, but be warned you will almost certianly not be happy with the sound. The mandolin is probably the most difficult string instrment to amplify, but if you can assess what kind of amped sound you truely need, it will make it easier. And the more info you give us the better we can make a suggestion.

[herbsandspices]

Thanks for all the comments guys!

I talked with Mick @ Steilberg Strings on the phone today (who I bought my FF from), and he was a huge help, as he's played at the same venue here in Chicago (Schubas), he knows a bunch, and he's a cool dude to boot. Anyways, we both think that since there will be drums, monitors, and possibly a loud crowd, that a pickup would probably be the best choice. And if I go pickup, I'm going Schertler, hands-down. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Breedlove could install one inside, with a 1/4" endpin, but the gig is in a couple of weeks, so we'll see.

UnityGain - answers to your questions!:
Drums: Yes
Electric Guitars: No
Noisy Bar: Yes
Used to playing on a mic stand: No, just acoustic, movin' round
Play out: Yes, but only unplugged up until now
First time being not acoustic: Besides recording, yes
Sound man: Yes, chances are, a good one
Monitors: Yes

The other problem is that I also need to mic my ukulele, which I play more than the mandolin in my band! Yikes! This plugged-in stuff is scary!

Thanks,
John

[UnityGain]

It does sound like you will need a pickup, and if you want to pony up to the shertler, all the better. I think you could get away with a clip on mic in that situation, esp since you might have a talented sound man. But a pickup is pretty fool proof. Not having to fight against electric guitarists with a volume knob is very helpful. But drums are loud by nature and it take a certian amount of volume to properly be heard over them.

One thing though, get it soon and practice with it! Playing with a pickup is a much different experience than playing pure acoustic. Simply hearing the mandolin coming at you much louder than you are used to will be a great shock, if your anything like me. It will take some time before you are comfortable playing an electrified mandolin. Don't skimp on this one, treat it like learning a new instrument, because in some ways it is. If the first time you find out what its like to be amped is on stage, it will definatly throw you off your game.

As far as the uke goes, I'm not sure what your best bet is. Having a clip mic that you could just transfer would be nice, and technically you could remove and re-install the shertler between the uke and the mando. Its not ideal though because it takes time, and the pickup is sensitive to placement and the sound guy wont like it because he will have to reset the eq all the time (assuming he cares, which he should). Obviously having a pickup/mic for each is ideal, but might not be cost effective.

[mandroid]

I'd think someone closer than shipping to Breedlove in Oregon and back, can install the C Dyn S .
It would speed up the turn around to find a instrument tech nearby.

Recently Bought a Mix A5 which has it's pickup installed just inside the treble F hole,just outside that tone bar, under the bridge foot, which seems pretty darn convenient for the installer.

I'm Not sure if its the Ideal location sound wise, and CF is different from Spruce, certainly, so know: placement is a tone control itself.

when I stick on the other one , I put it in the middle of the soundboard under the strings behind and next to the bridge.

[herbsandspices]

Wow, thanks UnityGain! What a great response.

I agree that switching wouldn't be ideal - and I switch a lot between songs. I may end up buying a Schertler as well as a clip-on mic, and see which combo would be best between my mandolin and ukulele.

Awesome tip re: practicing with it too. I think we have an old acoustic amp laying around somewhere - I'll plug in a let 'er rip when practicing!

Best,
John

[herbsandspices]

Hey all!

Well, after a lot of talking, a little thinking, and some quick decision making, I sent my FF directly to Breedlove, to have a Schertler Dyn-M installed. There wasn't really going to be a good way to switch a pickup from one instrument to another, frequently, between songs, so this will be a worry-free (well, mostly) way to go about it. And believe it or not, it wasn't any more expensive.

Now, onto my ukulele!! Thinking about a DPA mic (4060, 4061, 4062... dunno if I want a high sensitivity or low?).

Thanks,
John

[Dan Krhla]

You might want to check out the forums on FleaMarketMusic for your uke needs. They can sometimes be Flea/Fluke centered, but overall there is a lot of good info.

[herbsandspices]

Wow, thanks for the advice - I'll check their forums out!

Best,
John

[Perry]

For years I used to attach my Schertler to my Collings with the putty; worked great, sounded great and was really quite simple. But now I have a Mix with the internally mounted Schertler with the end pin jack etc... and the convenience of the internally mounted Schertler is so great. Ah it's the little things in life

SO sending out your Breedlove for internally mounting was a great choice and one you won't regret IMHO.


What about another Schertler on your Uke?

Perry

[herbsandspices]

SO sending out your Breedlove for internally mounting was a great choice and one you won't regret IMHO.

Thakns Perry! That makes me feel a little less nervous!

What about another Schertler on your Uke?

That's a great idea, but I was afraid it wouldn't sound good with the nylon strings of a uke. (I don't know what makes me think that though!) Maybe I'll buy the stick-on Schertler for my lil' Uke.


One more question:

If I have the two Schertlers, should I buy a preamp, or just have them plugged right into the sound system? It seems like the Dyn-M doesn't necessarily need it, from what I've read and been told though?

THANKS!!!

john

[Perry]

For the Uke check out what classical guitar players like since they use nylon strings but the Shertler should work on nylon. Too bad no one near you has a Schertler that you could try on the Uke.

RE: pre-amp no the Schertler does no need an external pre-amp unless you want the control of EQ and if you play in very loud situations.

But logistically a pre-amp would be handy to turn off one instrument when switching to another otherwise you would have to take up two channels and either have access to the board or have the soundman very in tune with YOUR needs (good luck)

For a fantastic pre-amp that will handle both instruments and is of the highest quality and doubles as a very nice recording pre-amp check out the Pendulum SPS-1.

Here's a Link

It's very expensive but worth every penny IMHO. You can call Greg at Pendulum he'll answer any questions you have. Tell him your plan.

Good luck!
Perry

[mandroid]

Note: with an XLR plug the House board treats it like a microphone (which it is, in contact with soundboard)
and the signal goes thru the Microphone preamp on the mixer, or combo acoustic amp.

Stick on one should be fine , on the Uke.
putting a small sub mixer next to you, would allow both to remain hooked up,
and you could lower the volume on the channel as you set it on the stand.

[Doug Hoople]

Note: #with an XLR plug the House board treats it like a microphone (which it is, in contact with soundboard)
and the signal goes thru the Microphone preamp on the mixer, or #combo acoustic amp.

In a practical sense, what does that mean? What would you do either the same as or differently from any other pickup/amping combination?

[mandroid]

Stage snakes are for all the microphones on stage,Mic Cables are XLR.
guitars need a DI box to lower the impedance to match the Microphone characteristics,
if you aren't using your own amp on stage [fine in small rooms]

1/4" TR cables like off guitars is run into a second channel on my AC-60 (Mag/Piezo switch).
Schertler goes into the microphone input on the Amp. It has an XLR combo input on that channel and mic/line level switch.

[herbsandspices]

Well, after a little bit more scrambling, I was able to buy another Schertler Dyn-M with a 1/4" connection, meant for internal installation. I'm getting it Friday, will bring it to a local guy Saturday, and get 'er done next week! YIKES!

Anyone have a recommended luthier/repair place in Chicago for this sort of installation with a Uke?

Best,
John

Also, thanks for the XLR & 1/4" talk - I was wondering what the main differences were between the two in regards to an instrument pickup.

[Doug Hoople]

Thanks for the cable/impedance info.

I guess what I was asking, though, was the implications for setting gain, EQ, etc. Anything you should do at the board that you might have otherwise done on your pre-amp/stage amp/direct box?

Actually, I've got my own mission on this.

Small venue, Schertler Dyn-M pickup, Schertler Unico amp, Mackie 1202-vlz3 mixer. Any mileage in setting up the mixer in the chain, or should I run direct to the Unico and be done with it?

Then... would I be looking at the same answer if I added an on-board condenser mic in a dual pickup setup (for better sound image)?

[Doug Hoople]

Also, thanks for the XLR & 1/4" talk - I was wondering what the main differences were between the two in regards to an instrument pickup.

Be careful about your assumptions vis-a-vis XLR vs. 1/4" plugs. There used to be a hard distinction between the two, with relatively fixed impedances and wiring characteristics.

Things have changed, You can now find some XLR-equipped gear with relatively high impedance (the Schertlers are sort-of in this category). And 1/4" plugs now come in two version, the old-fashioned mono version, and the TRS version... with the TRS, you can wire for a "balanced" connection, and high impedance is no longer absolutely implied.

Also, especially with solid-state gear, impedance matching doesn't mean what it used to. For one thing, it's not as important as it used to be (it's still important), and you'll find some pretty confusing pairings that seem to defy the old "high-low" definitions that used to be in force.

[herbsandspices]

Interesting - I wonder what the deal is with the two Schertler's I bought, if they ahve the TRS, or the mono version of a 1/4" plug. Hmph!

I'm glad to hear that things are getting easier (or more complicated?), especially for people like me, who have only played unplugged up until now!

On a sidenote, Mick at Steilberg String Instruments has been such a huge help, from coordinating with Breedlove to get it OK'd for me to send it there, to selling me a second Schertler with a 1/4" pickup in it. He went way out of his way to make sure I was happy - they've got a customer for life here!

Best,
john

[mandroid]

they are supplied with a 3 contact TRS jack . I have one built into a Mix .

use a balanced or an instrument cable , if that's whats handy, though balanced cables are quieter for long runs.
you can always swap out one end of a Mic cable with a bit of soldering to put a TRS plug on one end.