Old timey style?

[Bitterroot]

I've gone to several bluegrass jams and yesterday was my first old timey jam. I was having a fun time picking up on the chord progressions quickly to songs I never heard of before and working through some melodies. Today I was told by a fellow mandolin player that I was playing "frowned upon" style. I was playing bluegrass chops to the songs. We played several fiddle tunes I was familiar with and I had only ever chopped the chord progressions if not doing the melody. I was told I was suppose to be playing it like a guitar struming two finger chords. I would imagine if this is correct then doing a tremelo there would be absolute taboo. Is this true or myth?

[mandolirius]

<I was told I was suppose to be playing it like a guitar struming two finger chords. I would imagine if this is correct then doing a tremelo there would be absolute taboo. Is this true or myth?>

Both, actually. It's true to a certain extent and what that means to me is that chopping chords doesn't compliment the style that well. For one thing, there are lots of irregular chord changes in old-time, that occur on half beats, or bars with odd numbers of beats. But it's also myth in the sense that it's not true that chop chords, tremolo or other standard techniques don't ever work or are never appropriate.

Lately I've immersed myself in old-time music. I go to lots of jams and sessions, with some really excellent old-time musicians. I've been wondering what my place (as a mandolin player) should be. I know a few tunes and will offer one up when the fiddlers run out of ideas. But I don't play along with the fiddles on melodies because the mandolin can't do all those wierd quarter tones or the bow shuffle. For the most part, I try to do what the banjo players do. That does involve a lot of two-finger, or doublestop positions. But the key to blending in is in the rhythm. I've found I need to play totally free-wristed and play a mix of doublestops and counter melodies.

So that's my best advice to you - learn a few tunes well enough that you can lead and keep them in your pocket, to be pulled out if necessary. Aside from that, try to sit near a good banjo player and pay close attention to what he or she does.

[jim_n_virginia]

Yeah when I first started going to the Old Time Jams I was strictly a bluegrass player and I would pick the tunes I knew and chop on the tunes I didn't. They were a nice bunch so it was real subtle but I soon got the picture that TOO much chopping was a no no. A little was alright and on many Old Time tunes it sounds good.

But I now play melodically when a tune is played or sung I don't know. It has turned out to be good practice for me to try different methods or styles of rhythm. I also crosspick or anything I can do to add to the whole sound which is the main difference between Old Time and Bluegrass as you probably already know, everyone plays together in Old Timey.

[Jean Fugal]

I may have been at that jam. You have some signatures on the back of your ax?

In any case, keep coming back,try to fit in best you can, and if you see some eyebrows raised just do less of what you are doing and more of something that maybe fits better. Just as in bluegrass there are many "right" ways and many jams that are fun to be around and many that are just plain stuffy.

Thats what I say anyway. Music is too important to be left to professionals.

jpf

[Jim Garber]

I have been playing old time music for over 30 years and I don;t recall any hard and fast rules for mandolin players -- or, at least, have not seen the rule book

The best you can do with any jam is to listen carefully and try to fit in. I would think that soft chopping would be fine in most cases tho playing fortissimo chops might make many musicians cringe. In more modern style of OT music the groove is of utmost importance and well as blending in to the mix.

Listen... and ask some of the players what they think.

BTW the mandolin generally has been in a minor role in OT music in the relaly old days. As a matter of fact, guitar wasn;t even used all that much, no bass. OT music has certainly evolved over the years and, who knows -- I may not even fit in any more.

[ALog]

How about an example of "old-timey" music? I've never been one for classifications.

[Don Christy]

There are some great past threads on this topic. Check some out:

Here

Here

Here

Here

Good luck,
Don

[lgc]

There are about a bazillion styles of old time, from rags to ballads to fiddle tunes to modal banjo tunes. Mandolin is played differently in every recoding that it is present. Play what is fun for you. If someone is saying that "that is not the right way to play OT" then they have a limited view of the term and you shouldn't allow yourself to be hobbled because of it. Was there much singing at the jam?

[Don Christy]

There are about a bazillion styles of old time, from rags to ballads to fiddle tunes to modal banjo tunes. #Mandolin is played differently in every recoding that it is present. # Play what is fun for you. #If someone is saying that "that is not the right way to play OT" then they have a limited view of the term and you shouldn't allow yourself to be hobbled because of it. #Was there much singing at the jam?

Sure that's true, but IMO you hobble yourself even more if you go to a jam and just wail away playing whatever is fun for you without listening and trying to create something that works with what the other musicians are doing. One of the keys to any style of music is figuring out how to contribute something that fits in well with what's going on. There are plenty of threads on the differences between OT and BG, and you don't have to agree on what those particulars are to admit that each requires a different approach.

YMMV
Don

[lgc]

I agree, however, OT is supposed to be a fun and loose. If the OP was playing chop chords because that's what he/she felt worked at the time then it may very well have been appropriate. I've been to a lot of OT jams that were not made better by people playing it the "right" way and were enforced by people making comments like those made to the OP. Even if the OP's rhythm choices were not ideal, chances are he/she would have moved in the right direction. There are no rules in OT.

[Ken Berner]

Would those old-time regulars here, recommend picking pentatonic scales when playing an unfamiliar tune? I am planning a trip to Florida and will be sitting in on some old-time music jams. I would like to fit in as best I can.

[Don Christy]

I agree, however, OT is supposed to be a fun and loose. #If the OP was playing chop chords because that's what he/she felt worked at the time then it may very well have been appropriate. #I've been to a lot of OT jams that were not made better by people playing it the "right" way and were enforced by people making comments like those made to the OP. #Even if the OP's rhythm choices were not ideal, chances are he/she would have moved in the right direction. #There are no rules in OT.

lgc, again i agree with you generally. OT should definitely be fun and loose. It sounds like bitteroot had a great time.

And I want to start with I don't know bitteroot so this may not be accurate.

BUT (you knew it was coming ) ... it's completely possible (dare I say likely) that bitteroot was doing what he knew rather than what "he felt worked." I know when I first went to an OT jam, I didn't have a clue and did what I knew. I appreciated some of the (very friendly) regulars making (very friendly) recommendations.

Even though I'm by no means an expert in any of this, I've developed my own "playing voice." And interestingly enough, it's different for OT and BG. It's still my voice, but different styles of playing.

You are probably right, there are no rules in OT. But's there's something there - and you have to listen to pick it up.

Again YMMV,
Don

[Don Christy]

Would those old-time regulars here, recommend picking pentatonic scales when playing an unfamiliar tune? I am planning a trip to Florida and will be sitting in on some old-time music jams. I would like to fit in as best I can.

If you are sitting in on OT jams that you are not familiar with, I probably woundn't try using pentatonic scales.

This is all my opinion, YMMV, so please take it for what it's worth. But, here's how I would approach it.

For an unfamiliar tune, if the chords are not called up front (probably won't be), I would just sit and listen for a round or two and make sure I have the chords down. Learn to watch the guitarist is there is one. Other players will really appreciate you not floundering trying to pick out the chords.

Once you have the chords down, start playing rhythm with mostly open chords (two finger). Pay close atten to the rhythm of the tune, especially as played by the lead instrument (likely a fiddler).

While you're listening and watching the fiddler and playing the rhythm, really let the tune sink in. Get it in your mind. Good thing about OT is that the tune will often go on for a long time and will often have a fairly simple melody.

Watch the fiddler's left hand. Listen for double stops, etc.

If you have a pretty good ear, try to play the melody once it's in your head. You could also play some counter melody, but I wouldn't recommend playing a harmony part.

So much of music is captured by the rhytmic content of the song. Focusing in on really capturing that can be a lot of fun on the mandolin even if you never play the melody.

And as lgc will undoubtably say - HAVE FUN.

Don

[hoffmannia2k7]

dissent is the higest form of patriotism - thomas "the rock" jefferson.

this talk wants me to lay down my mandolin.

I find in music, we must trust people to do what they feel sounds right and that their opinion of what is right should be trusted and if what they feel is right is harsh sounding to others their jam phone will not be ringing often. It is a good thing jams are open and people can come and do what they want.

Bitteroot, chop away and tremelo all you want.

Tremelo, imo, sounds great at ot jams.

[Joe F]

I attend three old-time jams a week, and more often than not, I'm the only mandolin player. #For the most part, I tend to alternate between picking the melody and playing open chords. #For tunes where someone is singing (e.g. "Bully of the Town", "Camp Meeting in July"), I'll play gentle chop chords that aren't very percussive. #And on slow waltzes, I'll throw in some tremolo from time to time.

In the three years that I've been going to old-time jams regularly, I've gotten to the point where I can pick up new tunes by ear fairly quickly. #I don't think I've looked at any tablature in over a year.

[mandolirius]

<If the OP was playing chop chords because that's what he/she felt worked at the time then it may very well have been appropriate.>

I didn't get that sense from the OP. He said it was his first old-time jam, so I assume he was playing what he knew, as opposed to what he felt "worked".

[Gary S]

An interesting recording John Hartford's "Speed of the Long Bow" is a great example of some of many different ways of playing old time music. The musicians play very freely and switch often their approches toward a tune and what the other players are doing.
I would think that a 2 and 4 chop could fill a nice spot in any style of music...Gary

[earthsave]

Instead of chopping the chords, just let the chords ring a bit and play open style chords when not playing the melody.

[JeffD]

I have been playing old time music for over 30 years and I don;t recall any hard and fast rules for mandolin players -- or, at least, have not seen the rule book

The best you can do with any jam is to listen carefully and try to fit in.

That really nails it, I can't agree more.

I have been playing old time, southern and northern for almost as many years, and have a lot more experience with it than with BG. So for me its the BG jam where I have to stop and think, OK what is appropriate here.

Do A LOT of listening.

I know I am going to get shot for this, but here goes, while it is always a good idea in all kinds of music to know and be able to play the melody, it seems it is more so in old time. The improv, if any, is much closer to the melody. And a note for note rendition of the melody that is sweet and sincere will get as much adulation as the wildest improv in BG.

[JeffD]

How about an example of "old-timey" music? #I've never been one for classifications.

For so called "northern" old time I submit the following great album:

[JeffD]

How about an example of "old-timey" music? #I've never been one for classifications.

For so called "southern" old time music I submit the following:

[allenhopkins]

[1] #Off-beat "chop" chords on the mandolin are a style specifically developed in bluegrass, even more specifically by Bill Monroe, and probably related to the need to maintain a rigorous beat at very fast tempos, the "sock" rhythm guitar playing of western swing guitarists (related to the "comping" of arch-top jazz guitarists), and a desire to balance the on-beat bass and rhythm guitar "boom" in the bluegrass band.

[2] #"Old-timey" is a huge, broad definition. #Mandolin had a very definite role in backing vocals, especially in the "brother duets," where a tremolo was very welcome as a "third harmony" voice. #The old string bands welcomed all kinds of instruments, from Autoharps to pianos to banjo-ukuleles to harmonicas. #Gid Tanner's Skillet Lickers sometimes featured Ted Hawkins on mandolin (Tanner's Rag and Tanner's (Ricketts') Hornpipe); the Three Stripped Gears had, I believe, a banjo-mandolin, and the Dallas String Band did too. #But when people speak of "old-timey" now, they're usually referring to fiddle-lead dance tunes, and the fiddle-frailed/clawhammer banjo-guitar lineup has become almost as de rigeur and restrictive as the standard bluegrass lineup, in some jam situations.

[3] #In this more limited "old-timey" context, mandolin fits in best when it sounds least "bluegrass." #Many old-timey musicians are self-consciously and defiantly non-bluegrass, even anti-bluegrass. #They don't want to sound like the the early Blue Grass Boys, or like the identifiably pre-bluegrass old-timey bands (Mainer's Mountaineers, Snuffy Jenkins/Pappy Sherrill & the Hired Hands); generally they prefer the less-supercharged, more quirky and idiosyncratic fiddle band sounds. #Open chording, melodies and counter-melodies, and a "running" double-stop style will fit in better.

[4] #If you'd like to hear excellent mandolin in an old-timey band, check out Jim Watson with the Red Clay Ramblers in their recordings from the '70's and '80's. #He really knew how to make that F-2 fit right in.

[red7flag]

Very informative thread. #Allen your post was excellent. #A side note I was hanging with some old timey banjo players at the TN Banjo Institute and went to get a shower. #Came back and they were playing the same tune. #But, when asked they will swear that there are subtle changes. #I guess I am not very subtle as it sounded the same to me. #They were cool to let a bluegrasser experiment with them. #We played a number of crossover songs like Soldiers Joy, Cripple Creek and the like. I was the only grasser to cross over to the other side and I had a great time. I remember playing Foggy Mt. Breakdown on a fretless banjo. #They were happy to play along, along, along, along, along. #Just joshing, some really nice folks.
Tony

[Steve L]

#I would think that a 2 and 4 chop could fill a nice spot in any style of music...Gary

It's not uncommon for a mando players attending their first Irish Traditional session to chop on tunes. It's hard to overstate how much this is not appreciated. To people trying to play in that style, it really robs the music of a lot of the flow and subtle elements of it's character.

It's tricky because from a bluegrass players perspective, it "fits" and sounds fine but from the POV of the Irish players, it's just awful. The style is simply all wrong.

[sgarrity]

People get too hung up on "styles". It's music. Just play!
I go to bluegrass, old-time and Irish jams. I chop, I strum open chords, I tremolo single notes and double stops, I take breaks and play the melody. I've yet to have anyone complain about my playing and the first time they do will be the last time I attend that jam.

The biggest problem I see with jams of all kinds is dynamics. Don't chop at full volume all the time. There is a time for that but it is rare! Listen to what is being played and do something to compliment the music. Old-time and ITM are relatively new forms of music. So the people that harp on keeping it "traditional" really get on my nerves and I just won't play with them.