Stage building

[Don Grieser]

I can't seem to find any info on building an outdoor stage on the net anywhere. Any of you have any ideas on how to do this in a way that will make sound reinforcement easy rather than a feedback nightmare?

What we have found to work in the past is either an open fronted dome structure or a pyramid shape (based on a scaled down glastonbury stage).
These seem to project the sound really well and minimise feedback.
Good thick ply wood floor weighted with breezeblock if the stage is hollow beneath and possibly some old carpet of some description layed on top.

[TonyP]

I guess I'd have to know the setting and the kind of weather you are expecting to use it in. In my experience anything with a back, sides and top are, depending on the setup, feedback nightmares. If you are not going to be playing without sound reinforcement, yeah, the clamshell idea would help project. But if you are going to amplify, why do that? Let the PA do the work. One of my favorite venue's is up in the Gold Country of CA in a little town called Mariposa. They have a community outdoor setting for music that is just about perfect. Cement floor, slightly raised stage, with a minimal arbor over it with vines. It's situated so in the evening old trees close by shade it. Very minimal feedback and easy to overcome. It's in a bowl with lawns all around and I don't think there's a bad seat in the place.

[lawdawg]

Re-create the front of a cabin with a porch as the stage. Has same acoustic affect and great aesthetics. I actually re-built an old turn of the century shack and put a rought cypress porch on it for the stage. We pick inside and out depending on the weather and size of the crowd. I finished the inside with rough lumber - great acoustics.

Sorry, I was thinking of England and s****e weather.
Having said that, the aforementioned structures do project the sound to a larger audiences best of all (no arguments), we have tried and tested this.

[pasturepicker]

Select the stage site carefully giving consideration to audience seating, surrounding camping, day parking, and vendors as well as access by band buses and sound equipment vehicles.

Well drained ground is a big plus. You can spend a lot on building gravel roads around the stage area otherwise.

Provide for more than adequate electric. Low voltage can cause big headaches for the sound man. Stage lights draw a lot of electricity. Isolate the electric for sound from everything else. You don't want to lose sound when the food vendor plugs in his third deep fryer.

Think about the elevation of the stage. You don't want the people in the back of the audience tent only seeing the performers from the waist down because the stage is too high. You also may want the audience to be able to see the performers feet when the Cherryholmes dance for example. This might require a slope from the audience down to the stage. Some elevation of the stage will probably be necessary for the audiences line of sight. Under the stage is good storage for all the festival signs and other things that you only use once a year for the event.

Be sure to make the stage big enough. Think about the amount of room required by a band to move around comfortably. Heck, you might even have The Ricky Skaggs Orchestra booked someday! Have plenty of room back stage. Having access to the stage from both sides of backstage can enable better traffic patterns for the band coming off stage and the band going on. Bass players really appreciate this. Have some kind of a shelf for drinks behind the band. Nothing looks worse than a band member with an instrument strapped on having to bend over to grab a cup of water off the stage floor quickly between songs and having his shirt tail pull out.

For feedback control, avoid large parallel surfaces. You can get real elaborate with accordian (zig zag) walls or a trapazoid shaped structure. However, conventional square corners make for easier carpentry. I have found that gluing cheap outdoor carpet to precut plywood panels and then installing them on the ceiling helps tremendously. I have a long piece of carpet that I hang on the back wall of our stage using grommets in the carpet and screw hooks in the ceiling. Use plain, solid, subtle colored carpet that the performers will show up well in front of. Carpet on the floor is good too.

One other thing, have your festival logo on the back wall of the stage behind the band. This will result in publicity for your event when photos appear in the media.

[Don Grieser]

Thanks everyone! I guess I'll look up a bunch of festivals and see what photos of stages I can find.

[mandroid]

Anyone used a side curtain type #heavy goods trailer ?
seems a straight foreward approach.
there must be a clever way to open and close the side curtain on cue.

[TonyP]

Man, ain't that a good idea mandroid !......I can't remember what the "roof" of those trailers are, or how high they are....but especially if you could modify the canvas/sidecurtains. What would be really nice is to be able to open and close the sides or back as the sun moves or the breeze changes. And trailer beds are usually pretty stiff. Thing is you just don't see to many of those kinds of trailers around this neck of the woods. They used to have an all metal trailer/stage that was used at one of the BG fests out here and it was a nightmare for feedback. But I think you are on to something with the canvas.

[pasturepicker]

An 8' wide trailer floor isn't wide enough with a row of foot lights, floor monitors, and mic stands with booms for the performers to have much room to move around. Some kind of fold out floor extension would be necessary.

I saw a mobile stage where the side folded out hydrolically to make additional floor and also an extended roof. There were built in stage lights and fold down back stage stairs too. It was pretty slick.

If the event is to be held at the same location each year, I think that a permanent building would be a more economical way to go. Maybe check into renting a mobile stage?

[Don Grieser]

Pasturepicker, what are the dimesions of your stage? Looks like you've got quite a festival there. How many years have you been doing it?

I think we'll probably end up building something, but I have played off of a flatbed trailer more than once. In fact, he and I both own flatbed trailers so we could pull em next to each other and have a big ole portable stage floor anyway.

[Smyers]

There's no hard and fast rules for stage building, just some general guidlines based upon acoustic laws. #(Assuming non-acoustic clamshell design.)

1- The stage floor needs to be as acoustically inert as possible and/or have greatly reduced resonance. #What does that mean? #MASS - The more mass, the better. #Poured concrete is king in this regard. #But even if you use concrete, you need to cover it with acoustic material of some sort. Short of concrete, use at least 14"x2" for bracing every 12". #Cover it with acoustic flooring material too. #Use concrete bricks for deadening where possible. #There are a lot of way to go. #Use you ingenuity.
2- You want the back, sides and roof of the stage to be acoustic black holes. #Therefore, the walls and roof you want to be as acoustically transparent and/or absorbing as possible. #You want them to pass the sound or absorb it, not reflect it or become resonant drum heads. #Again, there are a lot of designs out there for this. #Everything below 500 Hz is easily passed. #Everything above 2,000 Hz is easily absorbed. #It's between 500-2,000 Hz you'll have to think about. #And guess where most of the sonic energy is in music. #You got it, between 500-2,000 Hz. #2,000 Hz is the peak for human voice intelligibility.
3- Don't make the sides, roof, back or floor parallel to each other. #Make them "clamshell" outward toward the audience. #This eliminates multiple reflection problems.
4 - Bigger is better! #The farther you can keep the preformers from the back and side walls, as well as the roof, the better. #This will help keep the stage acoustically quiet.
5 - This should be obvious; Face the open side of the stage away from the prevailing winds in your area.
6 - Finally, if you have the dough, hardwire the stage. #Yes, AC electrical is important, but I referring to putting in stage pockets with all the audio outputs & inputs you will ever need. #All of this will run to a break-out panel somewhere to the back and one side of the stage. #Run it all in conduit, since it is outside. #It'd use West Penn wire, since it is very cheap and can be gotten anywhere and just as good as Belden, but there are plenty of good brands of wire to use. #How amny sends/returns you put in depends upon the vision you have for performances form the stage. #A 48x12 system is a common size for a decent stage, although for dedicated blugrass, you wouldn't need near that many. #If you do run electrical, put it in separate conduits that are separated from the signal conduits by at least 1', except where they may come into a stage pocket. #Be VERY carful with your grounding system. #It is important you don't set-up ground loop problems. #This may require you have someone do some design work for you if you are not familiar with the essentials of sound system deign and grounding topologies. #There are a lot of schools of thought on this issue, but it is my preference to isolate the grounding system for the audio system from the electrical mains. #This is not always 100% possible economically.

I would suggest you go down to your local library at take out books on sound system engineering and recording studio design. #The recording studio desgin stuff will give you ideas on how to make a floor acoustically dead and give you ideas on walls. #Just keep in mind that what you are trying to accomplish is considerrably different that what is needed in recording studios, but the same construction techniques are common in some areas.

Have fun with your project.

[Don Grieser]

If we got a bunch of the Owens Corning 703 rigid fiberglass (or equivalent) and hung it all over the backs, sides, and ceilings, would that help? It seems like having a big heavy curtain/fabric would just kill the high end frequencies. I don't know if we'll be able to do concrete on the floor, but I know what you mean about not having the floor resonate. I've been on too many stages with that problem. Sure hate to build something and have it be a sonic mess.

[TonyP]

Don't know Don, but I really like your idea of putting the two trailers side by side to have more "depth" and then just making something to go on them. What deal to have your own flatbed! What I've always wanted to do is make some of one those folding room dividers, covered with burlap or some porus cloth that looked ok. And inside the frame have some of that pellow stuffing. This would give me a portable "backdrop" for the band and would kill the resonance behind us that makes for feedback. I think a variation of that, across the back of the stage, and some on the side/front would give a classy neutral look and because of the folding nature, be none reflective, and easy to store/setup. If you wanted to get fancy, make them Hemholz(sp?) baffles tuned to the freq. that Scott was talking about and you'd really be cookin'! You've not said what this is for, permanent or just a quickie, and how much you are wanting to put into this as far as $$ and time.

[mandopete]

Don,

Are you trying to build a permanent stage or something that is removable for a festival? #We played a festival last year where they rented a portable stage that was in fact the back end of medium sized trailer. #The whole thing opened up and was a fairly large performance area with all the bells & whistles. #No idea what such a thing would cost, but it seemed to be the best mobile performance stage I've ever seen.

[Paul Kotapish]

Most of the big festivals around here (SF Bay Area) that occur in venues without permanent stage facilities rent stages of the sort mentioned by Pete above. A truck hauls in a trailer, the sides flop down, the roof pops up, and various other components are assembled and shazzam--a professional stage.

I've played on lots of these over the years, and they work pretty well. They've gotten a lot more sophisticated in terms of providing ballast and stability so that the stage itself feels solid and isn't prone to weird sonic events from subwoofers and so forth.

There are a lot of outfits out there making these things, and they come in a variety of sizes--from really big units to smaller music-in-the-park-sized rigs.

Here's one outfit that makes them:

http://www.stageline.com/sl100.html

[Don Grieser]

A friend of mine has a few hundred acres of land. He has a couple quonset buildings and he's turned one into a performance/recording space. Last spring we had Mike Compton and David Long perform there. Like some us, he got the music bug later in life and now he's talking about starting a festival. He's pretty serious about it, and like a bunch of folks in the wilds of New Mexico, has decent welding/mechanical/building skills, a tractor, and lots of different kinds of equipment/tools. He showed me this little natural amphitheatre on his property, a sloping hillside with cedar/piñon pine trees around the back of it. He's got a big field where RVs could park. We may do something temporary the first year, but knowing him, he'll want to do it up right.

Hope I don't mash any fingers helping put this together.

[mandroid]

Location ,welding gear handy and materials #recycling theme,
A Hollywood Bowl like a Quarter-sphere made out of #Quanset hut Arch # pieces of steel , #
has #some #design appeal, for acoustic projection. ...
#

[luckylarue]

Don,

Good luck and keep us posted if/when this festival will take place. I know that a good fest in NM is a rare occurance so you can count on a few of us up here in Vegas.

[Don Grieser]

Wow, mandroid, who would have thunk Arcosanti would make it into the MandoCafe? That would be a cool spot for a festival too. The quonsets are taken, unfortunately. I'll keep you all posted if and when we get it all put together so you can plan your trip to Ramah, NM.

Thanks again for all your suggestions. That portable stage at stageline.com would be perfect.

[sunburst]

An 8' wide trailer floor isn't wide enough with a row of foot lights, floor monitors, and mic stands with booms for the performers to have much room to move around. Some kind of fold out floor extension would be necessary.

I was a drummer in a former life. I used to cringe at the site of a flatbed trailer in a field masquerading as a stage.
If the stage is going to be used by bands with drums, take a tape measure somewhere and see how much room a full set of drums with mic stands and booms all around it, and a set of monitors behind and to the side of the drummer needs. Add a little more room for the drummer to walk to his/her position behind the drum set, and then be sure there is room in front of all that for a row of foot lights, floor monitors, mic stands with booms and room for the performers to move around.

[pasturepicker]

"Pasturepicker, what are the dimesions of your stage? Looks like you've got quite a festival there. How many years have you been doing it?

I think we'll probably end up building something, but I have played off of a flatbed trailer more than once. In fact, he and I both own flatbed trailers so we could pull em next to each other and have a big ole portable stage floor anyway."

Hey Don,

To answer your question, I built our stage 12'x 24' and the roof hangs out over the floor by 2'on all sides. There is an uncovered area on the side where the MC works from with his own mic so he isn't in the way when changing bands. If I had it to do again, 14 or 16' x 28' would be better. This would allow the equipment and band to be moved back further under cover if it was raining.

For your first festival, I wouldn't get too extravagent with the stage until you know it is going to be an annual event. There are plenty of other areas to spend your money. The two flatbeds side by side with some plywood layed over them and a well secured attractive pipe frame canopy should work. Put some 4x8 sheets of lattice or hang a tarp that matches the canopy across the bottom of the flatbeds to hide the running gear. Have another canopy for the backstage area.

Our stage is on the front of our house and serves the rest of the year as the front porch. The side porch and house are backstage and the green room. When I started on the stage I told my wife I was building her a porch and that went over real well.