Spray shellac first coat

[Rick Turner]

In the violin world this coat of something under the varnish would be called a "ground", and there are many, many formulae for them.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Darryl, it got sticky? that's interesting. Thanks

maybe not exactly sticky, but soft and "fingernail-able"

[testore]

would ANYONE coat their mandolin in EPOXY!!!!!? I hate the stuff and don't use it on anything.I'd bet my life that Loar didn't use much either.

[John Bertotti]

Rick was it you that posted the mineral ground stuff a year or so ago?

I like the hide glue wash idea but how heavy a cut do you use? And how do you get it to be clear?

[testore]

make i thin sollution, like you would for sizing....maybe milk thickness. just brush it on..it goes on clear.let it dry for 1-2 hours, sand it(400-600 grit) and start varnishing.

[Rick Turner]

Not me on the mineral sizing, but if you go a-Googling in the violin stratosphere for something like "varnish ground", you'll find more than you want to know from some very opinionated people.

[chris]

My Loar has just about every kind of wear spots on it you could imagine. It is all original finish and appears to have never been frenched since new.
# On the top where your arm would rub it is worn down to the wood. In that area the wood is shinny like the wood was sealed and still is sealed with something. Perhaps hide glue like mentioned. It is very evident that the stain did not penitrate into the wood. On the edges of this wear area, a somewhat sharp line has been created from finish to no finish.
# On the back of the mando the french polish layer is virtualy gone in most areas leaving the oil varnish exposed. In one area it looks as if the varnish was wiped on as opposed to being brushed on. The texture of the varnish finish there is smooth but more like it was raged on with long strokes. Other areas of the back where the varnish is thicker, it appears to have a more polished look. There isn't any real bare spots on the back so I cannot tell if the stain penitrated into the wood but my gut feeling is it did in order to get the grain contrast.
The neck looks yet a little different. I appears like some of the base color stains penitrated the wood yet the darker stain is laying on top of a sealed surface.
#In my opinion, Not just one method was used to finish the whole instrument.

[testore]

And I'll go further to say that as with every maker from Amati on down, the finish process changes all the time. There's not one builder who can say they've never tried anything but what they're useing now.It's kinda hard to say what was used with just a small sample. Makes it impossible to say any one thing for certain, and that makes all this even more fun I think.

[HoGo]

There was a thin, hard, shiny coat of something directly under the varnish. That coat was not affected. The varnish went from perfect to soft and sticky as you approached the affected area and then to non-existant revealing that undercoat. I simply french polished it and you cannot tell anymore.

Darryl, could be the french polish layer (often pretty thick on Loars) that got soft. The waxe shellac can become sticky with perspiration. Shellac will dissolve in bases and perspiration contains some urea, which also turns the wood yellow after prolonged contact. The shiny layer can be just the oil varnish.
On the subject of violins most luthiers claim there is something under the varnish of Strads, but great many of them have tons of polish (shellac, propolis etc...) on them, so it's hard to tell if there was ANY mysterious ground used. Some of the micro scans show the layers, but what they describe as ground could be as well the original varnish under all the polishes.
Thirdly, I like the idea of hide glue as a sealer. But you should consider that hide glue of twenties wasn't the water clear stuff most of you, guys, use. It was caramel colored, often not very clear. I have similar hide glue made witout the microfiltration and it leaves yellow colored coat on the wood. What I like is that the grain on Loars is generally not showing like on modern mandolins. Could be any or all of the next three reasons:
a) cut of the wood
b) colors used were not perfectly clear and didn't penetrate the wood deeply
c) sealer under/over colors that wasn't perfectly clear.
Hide glue or gelatin was one of the favorite sealers under or over the colors during the era.

[Darryl Wolfe]

HOGO, that could be, but I really cannot tell.

FWIW, Paganoni uses epoxy to seal coat his prior to varnish. The top finish on most of the earlier ones is epoxy only, as his only varnished the sides and back. I varnished my no. 29 top right after I got it

[testore]

HoGo,
It very complex, but there is something underneith these great violins.Most of them anyway.On really bashed up instruemnts it is hard to say what is there but on pure instruments it very clear to see a clear layer under the colored layer that the colored layer has a hard time adhering to.That is why they develop those beautiful wear patterens.Even on lesser violins (Testore, Grancino, etc) there is something under the colored layers most of the time.The ground to me is what goes on the wood first, then there is a layer that comes between the ground and the color. It may just be polish(still talking violins) but something is there for sure, may be accidental or purposeful who knows.In the case of mandos I think it's a fine idea to borrow something from the violin world.And like I said earlier, I'm sure that I'll change what I'm doing soon enough for no real reason other than to try something else.

[Michael Lewis]

Not long ago I had a Loar in for repair that had previous water damage from many years ago. If it had hide glue under the finish there would have been no finish left. The finish that is on the instrument looks to me to be original and pretty durable. There are a few very small areas where bare wood is exposed, but the surrounding finish is evenly worn to feather out at the bare spots and it is polished from wear.

I have seen a couple violins that had finish just flaking off. My suspicion is that they had hide glue as an undercoat to the finish and they got damp. Hide glue will always take up water if it is available, and when it does it swells up several times it's dry state.

[testore]

Michael you're right about all that. If you put plaster of paris or chalk or ground silica into the hide glue it will change it some chemically. There are a lot of additives you can use that will not keep hide glue permanent but will help it adhere better and last longer.I know the plaster idea sounds crazy but it works well and doesn't effect the look of varnish over the top. It is a little cloudy in the jar but goes on almost perfectly clear. I'm not saying that Loar did this, there where however a few German violin makers working in the Gibson factory at some point and have wondered what amount of their experiences varnishing large quantities of instruments stayed in use. The Germans loved what they call "ising glass" or hide glue and silicates (ground glass). Again, not saying it was used by Loar but it works and I think it makes more sense than drowning an instrument in epoxy.

[Yonkle]

I spray a thin thin coat of lacquer first then use shellac,never a bleeding problem.
PS: I like the smell of Lac bug goo too, unfortunatly bugs do too. While coating outdoors I have had little winged buddies fly into the lac and flap thier wings and really **** me off! #Shellac kinda smells like honey, may work well for diareah, better check with doctor first, could cause a "compaction in your lower fraction"