Personal monitors

[poymando]

Hi all,
I just reached the limit of banging on the mando because I cant hear myself at gigs. Thinking about getting one of those personal in ear monitor systems. Anyone have experience with them? Reviews, suggestions? Pros or cons?

Thanks!

[straight-a]

I don't like them mainly because of the very reason you're thinking of trying them. #I could never hear myself when I used them. #Also, when feedback happens, it's NO FUN AT ALL with it channeled directly into your canal! #I'm sure they can be properly setup and work very well (or they wouldn't be so popular) but I've yet to be exposed to that situation.

[mehrsam]

Poymando:

Most of my mando picking is at our church where we use the Aviom system:

Aviom Personal Monitor system

Pros:
You can dial in any of the other musicians and vocalists at any level, pan left / right in your earbuds, and pre-set & save your own personal settings.

Cons:
The biggest complaint is that you feel "isolated" from the ambient sound. I've gotten around that by using just one earbud, leaving my other ear receptive to the ambient stage and house sound. It is also a very dry sound (because it is digital, and not analog, technology). And they're expensive.

I suspect this system would be overkill if you are in search of a single personal monitor system for yourself. On the occasions where I am sitting in during an open mike or club gig, I'll run my octave mando, which is fitted with the K&K Big Twin Internal piezo pickup system, into a Baggs Para-Acoustic D.I. box. The low-Z output feeds the signal to the house system. The high-Z output feeds the signal to a Boss GE-7 graphic equalizer, which I use as a volume boost/control for the earbud monitor. It's not elegant but it works.

Hope this helps!

[TonyP]

poymando, there are several different systems/approaches to personal monitors. In our band we us studio style mics(very sensitive condensers) and so regular monitors are a major no no. There are many bugs about the wireless setups, but for me is the outrageous cost. And because we play bluegrass mainly we are used to mixing ourselves by moving in and out of the mic field and listening to what is essentially the house mix. I looked around and tried some of the cheap systems like the Nady and they were awful. So what I've done is a Behringer 4ch studio headphone amp plugged directly into the mixer running the same mix as the house. This gives each guy his own vol and tone of the house mix. If you are playing with folks who never back off the mic and are deaf to themselves(like so many folks are) you probably won't be able to hear yourself anyway still because that's what it's sounding like out in the house. To me, that's the what's bad about the "separate mix" thing. Yeah, you can get other people quieter or you louder in YOUR mix, but you can still be buried in the house. Does that make sense? The thing with this system that's been the hardest is finding in-ear phones that each guy likes. I use a model of Phillips that I love, fairly comfortable, only $20, sound great, and the bonus, you hear right through them. They don't isolate (we don't need isolation, we don't play that loud) so I can hear what's happening on stage and can tune. I think the headphone amp was less than $100, 4 20' headphone cords and each in ear. So way less than $200 total. You do also have to know how to put the things on so they stay, which I can't seem to teach the banjo player, but I'm happy, for the first time I can hear everything that's going on perfectly. I also have a trick program called SmaartLive that runs off the laptop for analyzing the PA so there is no feedback. This is the best setup I've ever used and the rest of the guys agree.

[poymando]

Thanks folks,
TonyP..Where does one find the Smaart program?

[TonyP]

here

[Darren Kern]

I tried them once, when I was auditioning to be the lead singer of a band. Big mistake to try something new during an audition, but that's what the band used. The sound to me was like when you sing and plug your ears at the same time. It was very distracting, things weren't mixed well (too much vocals and not enough instruments), and the audition went terrible.

[Windflite]

I had a similiar problem on stage in that we were playing gigs with lousy monitors (or none at all). #We have a six member band and occupy an awful lot of real estate on stage. #My problem (being on one 'end' of the band) was hearing the other band members in real time - as opposed through the mains! (yikes) #To solve the problem I invested in an inexpensive 'in-ear' setup to try it out. #The one I bought is... # InExpensive In-Ear Monitor Link... #I agree with the previous posts that the whole 'in ear' system takes some getting used to. #I will also say, however, that I instantly felt 'part of the music' again...and the struggle to hear myself and others was instantly removed. # For mixing purposes, I typically plug the sending unit into an unused monitor mix output. #That way I can have my own mix (no feedback)...or when necessary, play soundman by plugging into a main mix output and monitoring the house feed (latency free!) so that tweaks can be made to the board (which is on stage with us!) throughout the show. #

With all that said, we still strive to use our own PA where we can in order to have our floor monitors mixed to our liking. #When you need to use an existing PA or don't feel like haulin' the monitors, the In-Ear's do fill the niche quite nicely!

[tree]

TonyP,

I am looking into SmaartLive, thanks for that link. #What do you use for your measurement microphone? #Most of the SIA website seems filled with technical jargon that I will need to study to understand, but I like the idea of a laptop tool to help us optimize our sound system (and we need all the help we can get).

How steep is the learning curve for this software, for somebody who is vaguely familiar with sound system components but not the technical jargon? #I'm willing to work at it, if it will help us improve our sound.

[TonyP]

Clark, I'll tell you up front, this program has changed the way I do sound. Like I said, we use a 4033 and other condensers on stage, no floor monitors(I personally always hated those things). I was shown the program by an old friend who has been a pro sound man for years doing big name acts. I've only done the spectrum analyzing part of the program a couple times(which I have the 8900Berhinger mic for) and not for live sound. I just use it in realtime mode to tell me where the feedback is. I go through a M-Audio mobile pre hooked into one side of the stereo out of the mixer(we run mono in the house, that way everybody has the same mix/sound) so it's hearing exactly what the mics are "hearing". The program gives you a moving graphic display of the overall sound. So, when everything is "up" and I'm "ringing' the system, you watch the laptop and you'll see the one of the "bars" go up, that's the freq that's feeding back, you hold your cursor over the bar and it give your the freq of the corresponding slider on the 32band eq(your can have it represent other eq's, but really, 32 band is absolutely necessary to be able to get that one freq that's flippin' out). Then go to your eq and turn down that freq. For me, it's the only way I can know what freq it is. My buddy can hear it and know what it is, but I ain't got years to figure that out. The program is so deep, it's outrageous. I wish they had a lite lite version of this program for folks like us. I've used the spectrum analyzer to check the response of my monitors/system for recording and that was very instructive. The new v5 has more stuff than my v4 and I don't use one millionth of what it can do. I guess one of those anti feedback boxes would be cheaper, but the laptop comes in handy to record gigs with and other things related to the band. You also could take the Behringer mic and set it in the main part of the room and listen to yourself through the in ear monitors and get to hear what the audience hears, but I've not had time to do that. With our band I'm always under the gun to get in, set up, get things squared away and then it's play. I think for the few of us who want to really understand what's going on, SmaartLive is the best thing since the pocket, but it's a very deep tool and I think you could get the basics out of it pretty quick and if you ever want to REALLY get into it, that program is always going to be there waiting to be tapped.

[tree]

Thanks, Tony.

I've printed up the support material from their web site and will try to wade through that tonight. #It sounds like we may need a better eq #- I think our PA only has 12 bands or so.

We've only had our system for a year or so, and we didn't really know much about PAs when we bought it. #I've started a shopping list based on an earlier post of yours regarding the in-ear setup you use, which makes good sense to me. We use 2 AT2020s, a dynmic mic wrapped in a rag for the bass, and no floor monitors.

So far, our list of "wants" includes a power conditioner, a headphone amp, and now a good equalizer. #I think one of my bandmates has a relatively new laptop we may be able to use to run SmaartLive, providing it is compatible. ANYTHING to keep us from having to send somebody out in the house while we play, stop, tweak (basically guessing what and how much to tweak), play, stop, tweak, ad nauseum. Most times I can't tell that we have improved our sound at all. #It is frustrating enough that I'm willing to bash my brain against the hard surface of an unfamiliar and highly technical subject, if that will help.

[TonyP]

I'm very glad to be of any help I can Clark. My approach isnt' for everybody, but it works for me. Everytime we play I have musicians who come up to me just to ask, "what the heck is that?" looking at the laptop sitting on top of my homemade rack. They always complement me on the sound and wonder why there's no feedback. Did you happen to catch when I posted the pic of my portable rack that I jokingly called the Gig-Matic? The more I use that, the more I love it. I guess we're kinda hyjacking this thread

[tree]

I did, and I like the idea of rolling up the mic cables on the extension cord wheel.

[TonyP]

and don't forget the headphone cables on the other reel. Also, Radio Shack makes some cool little clips that are made for holding the in ear cords to your shirt to help take the weight off them so they don't pull out of your ears as much. I'll see if I can find the # again.

[tree]

Yikes, I checked the price on Smaartlive and it is out of our range, so we may change gears and look at an antifeedback unit. I think I came across a Behringer product at a pro audio website that combines a 31 band EQ with a sensor that does real time analysis and automatically adjusts the EQ to kill feedback when it happens. Anybody ever use anything like that?

This afternoon we played a tough venue, soundwise - stone walls, hardwood floor. Boy, could we have used some help with the sound. I imagine in-ear monitors would've helped, too. All we could do was bunch up as tight as possible and wing it from there.

[Windflite]

We tried the Behringer unit with what I would call mixed results. #We have since switched to a pair of Sabine FBX2020's and had much better luck. # #Unit 1 runs the Mains (L/R) and Unit #2 runs Monitor Feed 1 and Monitor Feed 2. # #One of the things that we did not care for with the Behringer unit was the level of feedback that had to be introduced in order to 'teach' the unit where to notch. #It seemed to not be as 'quick' to notch out feedback during a gig as well. ##The Sabine seems to learn quicker and at a much lower gain. #Of course, we never did have a chance to A/B the Behringer vs the Sabines in a live gig so I guess these are all generalizations! Oh well, hope this helps anyway! #