Varnish Formulas

[banjo1]

I do know that some of the formulas for instrument are a very guarded ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

But someone has to have a place to start from.
I live in a very humid part of the country for the most part.Which formula will work best where I live?

[dave17120]

I live in a very humid place too, and Tru-oil varnish works great, is thin, and easy to apply. Dave

[Dave Cohen]

"The Big Red Book of American Lutherie", from the guild of American Luthiers, has an article in it by George Manno on the "1704" varnish recipe. It is in Volume I, I think. George told me that he was severely taken to task for publishing that, but imo, there really aren't any secrets, and there shouldn't be.

[David Houchens]

Was this 1704 recipe an oil or spirit varnish?
Bryce

[banjo1]

Mike at Nuggett seems to have one that he feels is far better than the rest.
A friend of mine that used to build violins( I have one for sale by the way)Art Terry in southen Oklahoma sai that he ran on to a formula that required aireating the the varnish and then letting it set for a day or two for the air to come out.Then alowing it to sun cure for a few days in the sunlight.
Anyone tried this type ? and if so what was your results.
Thanks for the info. on the GAL books.I have not managed to get those books as of yet.

[PaulD]

This recipe says it's for a 1704 Spirit Varnish. I don't know if it's the same as what's published in the Big Red Book.

Paul Doubek

[banjo1]

Thanks for the link on the varnish PaulD.
I will include this in my notes:D

[Bill Snyder]

I do believe that most builders are still using nitrocellulose lacquer on their mandolins. It seems to me (and I am certainly no expert) that the popularity of varnish is something of the last few years.
The nitro can be purchased from just about any luthier supply house such as Stewart McDonald or or Luthier's Mercantile.. Several guitar builders are using the water based lacquers like KTM9 (Jim Holcomb started a thread on this finish not long ago). Then of course there is the old standby shellac which is commonly used by those choosing to French polish.
Read up on what people are doing here and take a look at the Musical Instrument Maker's Forum. They are not all mandolin builders, but they can be very helpful as well. Several of the posters here post over there as well.
Whatever you choose read up on it and ask questions before you start and as you go. If you find a finish you think looks promising there is a pretty good chance someone here or at the MIMF has already tried it and may have some words of wisdom.

[Big Joe]

We use nitrocellulose lacquer on most mandolins, but on our varnish models we use a proprietary formula and we do not intend to share it. It took a very long time to develop it and you are welcome to discover it the same way we did...with a couple decades of hard work. I don't mean to sound like a wise guy, just something we feel is an important link and makes our MM and DMM stand out from the rest. It is the final link in developing an instrument that is equal to the mandolin of the 20's.

[PaulD]

I'm not trying to dis Gibson, and I don't have a lot of experience with the intricacies of instrument finishes, but I suspect that the average builder could do just fine with off the shelf or publicly shared varnish formulae. This may not apply to Gibson's OAI varnish, but I would expect a production shop to have a "secret forumula" that attempts to balance acoustic properties against production finishing (speed, ease of application) and durability (less warranty work). There were good instrument finishes prior to the Loar era and there are new formulations today. Do your homework; search the GAL publications, MandolinCafe and MIMF archives, experiment with a few available finishes, and I'm sure you'll do just fine.

Paul Doubek

[banjo1]

Is the varnish the reason that some Loars left the factory after a period of time?
Curing time or slow sales?

[Stephen Perry]

Were I finishing mandolins I would use a commercial oil varnish designed for violins. From International Violin or the like. These are pretty good products that dry quickly. My own violins I do in a simple solution varnish that is rather softer and will wear off quickly. Which is OK on violins.

[Bill Halsey]

Save yourself a lot of effort -- speak with Joe Robeson of Tried & True Varnishes at 607/387-9280.

[Stephen Perry]

I don't see any pure or typical varnish listed at their site under products. The closest I see is the varnish oil. This seems to be linseed oil with a bit of unspecified natural resin varnish. When I tried it far too little film thickness resulted. It went on just about like Tru Oil. I would expect most folks desire a more rapid build. Also, linseed oil directly on wood doesn't seem to do the acoustic properties much good. At least not on violins.

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Someone mentioned on the fiddle list the other day that one could take a bit of linseed oil and add a few drops of super glue to it and quickly rub it onto wood for a nearly instant finish. Sounds crazy to me. Has anyone else heard of this? If so, do you have a reference? The person mentioned that this recipe was posted on the MIMF forum over a year ago, but I haven't been able to find it.

Thanks!

Woody

[sunburst]

Close.
Once, at the shop where I worked, I decided to try "straight" superglue as a finish. I prepared a scrap of curly walnut, very quickly "wiped" a layer of superglue on with a paper towel, and let it dry. (Minutes, if not seconds.) I repeated the process, and built up a good film thickness. As you can imagine, it looked rough; uneven, streaky, but intact.
Then I wet sanded and buffed. It looked great! The gloss of nitro, with the colorless clarity of water-based. I left the scrap lying around the shop for years, and the look never changed. I assume it's still there.
A co-worker decided to see if it would chip, and knocked it against a vice. It has a nice big dent in it now, but no chips.

[arbarnhart]

I have seen the CA finish trick recommended by pen turners; they apply it with a rag right on the lathe. The constant motion allows an apply/dry/buff cycle in short order.

[Bill Halsey]

I don't see any pure or typical varnish listed at their site under products. The closest I see is the varnish oil. This seems to be linseed oil with a bit of unspecified natural resin varnish. When I tried it far too little film thickness resulted. It went on just about like Tru Oil. I would expect most folks desire a more rapid build. Also, linseed oil directly on wood doesn't seem to do the acoustic properties much good. At least not on violins.

Right. I don't know what the company morphed into, but Joe Robeson has a ton of experience and input from many very good makers, has appeared at VSA, Fed, etc., and totally knows his stuff. Call Joe.

[Stephen Perry]

Sounds good. Lots of experience really helps. Especially if it is numbers experience. On spirit varnish I can get just what I want by sort of feel, but I don't know how I'd tell anyone about it!!

[Bill Halsey]

Sorry, I misspelled Joe Robson's name... here's his website dedicated to violin varnish: http://www.violinvarnish.com/about.htm
His email address appears on this page, as well.

[Chris Burt]

The 1704 varnish was a Big Secret back in the early 70s. It's interesting to see the power of the web and of the GAL as educational tools. When I first obtained the formula, I was curious about the properties of the individual ingredients. I made single-resin solutions of sandarac, mastic, and seed lac, (and even frankincense and myrrh just because I had them.) I brushed each single-resin varnish onto labeled strips of spruce and maple and then left them for a couple of years.

The seed lac film exhibited the greatest clarity and toughness; it would dent if I pressed my thumbnail into it hard enough to dent the underlaying wood, but it wouldn't craze or powder under pressure, even if dragged my nail for several inches across the wood. The other resins would craze and powder with similar treatment. Elemi is used as a plasticizer. It's also used because it smells so good. However, I've a thirty year-old chunk of elemi that is crusty on the outside (though still soft and sticky on the inside)--so much for its use as a plasticizer. Lavender spike oil is supposed to slow drying time and help brush marks level out.

"The Artist's Handbook of Materials and Techniques," by Ralph Mayer, is a useful addition to a luthier's library.

[PicknBow]

Here is a formula for "1704" from a violin restoration book.

45grams seedlac finely ground
9 ml. spike oil(Lavendula spica not Lavender Oil)
7.5 grams elemy
180 ml. alcohol(the more water-free the better)

Combine ingredients in a sealable jar and shake regularly for a few weeks. Simmer the unsealed jar in a water bath for about 15 minutes and filter immediately. Thin with alcohol if needed.

I really like this stuff as well as other similiar formulas. It smells great. To apply by brush:

1) Use a top quality brush.
2) Apply in thin coats- sometimes 3 or 4 a day
3) Apply rapidly but not recklessly= and NEVER go back over what you have done
4) Wait several days before rubbing out with micromesh or wet sanding.

Dark India seedlac (Kremer #60490)gives nice color without adding any dye. Here is about 4 or 5 coats applied over one coat of white shellac varnsh.

[Bill Halsey]

I first learned the 1704 formula from Giovanni Rossi, NY, in 1976, and it has since appeared in the Weisshaar/Shipman book, et. al. It works surprisingly well for it's simplicity, and is useful as a retouch medium. However, for a whole instrument finish, I would back off slightly on the gum elemi which really retards drying. Just a little will do the job.

My favorite contemporary ref on this subject is "Formulas For Painters" by Robert Massey -- see: http://www.amazon.com/gp....=283155
BTW, lavender also slows drying (spica isn't so bad), and Massey claims that turpentine will substitute for oil of lavender in any formula, and do a better job of it. Of course, your varnish may not smell as good, but will certainly be cheaper to make.

FWIW, Tru Oil works fine for me on mandos, about four or five thin brushed coats. It does tend to yellow quite a bit with time, so it might be well to scrape it off the binding before the last coat. However, it does give the headstock inlays that nice, old look after a while. I've always sealed the wood with shellac under Tru Oil, but I'm ready to try cera colla next time. A 50/50 mixture worked really well for me on a fiddle.

[banjo1]

All very good information.
How do each finish effect the acoustic properties of a mandolin?

I have used Tru-Oil on gun stocks alot with great results, but never thought about using it as an instrument finish.