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Thread: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

  1. #51

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Here is an approach grounded in similar scientific rigor to these devices:

    What is Harmonic Healing?

    We are made of energy. Energy vibrates. These "silent" vibrations can be detected by the inner senses. Deena combines her experience as a violin maker and her training as an energy healer for people and animals. Using her inner senses to feel the "silent" sounds of a violin, and then using her physical ears to assess the sound of the instrument when it is played, Deena has learned and continues to learn how her inner sense feeling translates into audible sound.



    Deena has also learned by a process called "harmonic induction," how to use her own energy field to effect a change in sound. When she "tunes" the vibrations in the dimension of "silent" sound, the result becomes physically noticeable to the usual outer senses.

    For example, a violin feels and sounds better to the player and sounds better to the listener after Deena has tuned it by harmonic induction. People say they feel better after their "silent" sounds have been assisted to vibrate in a more harmonious manner. Animals behave in ways to show that they, too, feel better after similar healing work.
    and

    ......In addition, Deena was intrigued by metaphysical phenomena. In 1997, she was graduated from the four-year Barbara Brennan School of Healing. This training, along with additional input from other healers and the innovative acoustical work she had done for years, led her to the ability to alter and improve sound vibrations in both musical instruments and sentient beings-first in person, then as she became more confident in her skills, at a distance. Deena's ability to effect positive change in the sound of violins and cellos is obvious to the numerous musicians with whom she works, even though they don't understand how she does it. In fact, most of Deena's regular string player clientele have learned not to discuss their secret with skeptical colleagues.

    Given her scientific background, Deena also has been interested in measuring the outcomes of her adjustments using advanced techniques in acoustical engineering. And yes, it has been found that the healing energy she sends stringed instruments really does change the physical oscillations of the instruments.......
    A number of knowledgeable people swear that it works so it must be real.





    http://www.singing-woods.org/healing.html

    http://www.singing-woods.org/article_northrup.html

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  3. #52
    Registered User Cheryl Watson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    That's really neat! The faster you drive, the faster the tune plays? And the cool thing is, that after driving over the rumble strip with your mandolin in your vehicle, the mandolin plays "America the Beautiful" all on it's own when next you open the case!

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  5. #53

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    What the video demonstrates:

    This particular guitar showed an increase in amplitude of the recorded wave-form while the devise was operating (the only data point that I can think of from this "experiment").
    That one data point disproves, however, the strongly-held and -voiced opinions that no instrument changes with use.

    One did, disproving that claim.

    Now it begins to fall to those claimants as to why any given instrument would/should be immune to change.

    I suspect carbon fiber instruments don't change, as an example.

    And, as I noted above and as you repeated, there is now further research which can be done to quantify the demonstrated effect.

    However, the demonstration does eliminate the claim that the effect doesn't exist.

    It also eliminates the possible claim that people, both players *and* builders, could never have heard "opening up," as that claim is also predicated on the claim that the phenomenon just doesn't exist.

    You are right in that the effect needs to be quantified, but at least "opening up" in response to vibration is no longer a debate, just subject to more quantification.

    And, it's not even a matter of opinion that it happened, but a measurable (and measured) change. Nobody swearing that they hear it, but just objective data collection via machine.

    Ah, the power of the demonstration!
    ----

    Playing a funky oval-hole scroll-body mandolin, several mandolins retuned to CGDA, three CGDA-tuned Flatiron mandolas, two Flatiron mandolas tuned as octave mandolins,and a six-course 25.5" scale CGDAEB-tuned Ovation Mandophone.

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  6. #54
    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    While not a rube and nor is this a Rube Goldberg machine, I remain skeptical of devices that claim to alter the structure of the wood to alter an instrument's sound. At least in a way that is appreciable to my ears and poor technique. I do remain convinced that people can do what they will to their mandolins, bake them, soak em in milk, scrape the necks, add weight, shave off weight, play more, scream at them.

    For me best tone is a combination of how I hold the instrument, my technique, and the mix of strings and pick to get optimal tone.




    Jamie
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  8. #55
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Love that loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong xylophone! I especially like the tremolo part around 1:05. As a mandolin player I would have liked more tremolo... but that is just me. BTW there was some intonation problems and I think a wrong note or two. Kidding, of course.
    Jim

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  10. #56

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    That one data point disproves, however, the strongly-held and -voiced opinions that no instrument changes with use.
    No one has said instruments cannot change with time. What has been said is that there is no guarantee those changes are an improvement or that they are consistent. The actual controlled study cited tends to indicate that in fact the effects are not consistent, reproducible or necessarily beneficial.

    If you read the study there are about as many cases where the tone was said to deteriorate after treatment as there were that improved. And some were thought to improve without treatment as well as deteriorate or stay the same.

  11. #57
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    I long for the days when people set their mandolins up on stands in front of speakers and blasted Black Sabbath at them with the volume turned up as loud as it would go for days at a time to open up their instruments! I always tried to envision their neighbors and family. This wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

    By the way, we do have threads here where people swore by the process.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  13. #58

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    As a bonafide science person, I try to not get into this type of exposition, because it does no good, but I do have to mention that the video describes a very much under-designed experiment that simply does not measure the variables that relate to the purported results.
    This is not to condemn the concept, although the actual literature shows that the excitation is many times too small to have any significant effect. Iím just saying the demo is a demo of something, but not a proper measurement.
    This is also not to condemn faith-based opinion, or anyoneís shaky understanding of science, nor am I a critic of anyone trying experiments or marketing things as long as nobodyís getting physically hurt, but I, myself have a firm belief that science and related measurement are real.

  14. #59

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    No one has said instruments cannot change with time.
    Actually, in the time I've been here, more than one member has claimed that instruments don't change over time in regards to sound.

    Other claims advanced were:

    Those who heard changes resulting from applied vibration were just deluded.

    As there were no changes, esteemed builders (Roger Siminoff etc.) who claimed to have heard instruments "open up" were either deluded, or taking advantage of the deluded in pursuit of sales.

    And so on.

    Having that "no proven changes" claim disproved moves the conversation forward.
    ----

    Playing a funky oval-hole scroll-body mandolin, several mandolins retuned to CGDA, three CGDA-tuned Flatiron mandolas, two Flatiron mandolas tuned as octave mandolins,and a six-course 25.5" scale CGDAEB-tuned Ovation Mandophone.

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  15. #60
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    That one data point disproves, however, the strongly-held and -voiced opinions that no instrument changes with use.
    Nope. It neither proves nor disproves anything. Even the published study that I linked earlier found differences from age, just not from a vibrating devise. There is evidence that something changed, but it might have changed anyway just from the guitar sitting there in the stand. There was no control so we don't know. Relative humidity could have changed (they didn't mention controlling for that). Causality has not been scientifically demonstrated.
    Furthermore, even if the device did something, that's not the same as changes "with use".

    In order to demonstrate that something happens, a sample of guitars would have to be "tested" and then compared with a control group to demonstrate that there is a significant difference. Even then, results that differ don't prove a thing, only supply evidence.

    Also, the results must be repeatable, meaning others should be able to conduct the same test and get similar results. That gives us more evidence but still doesn't prove anything. Even if we could accumulate pages of data from many different experiments we still have no proof, only a preponderance of evidence, and that's about the best we can hope for when it comes to scientific discovery.

    OK, so suppose we have 300 studies that all show an increase in measured amplitude while the devise is working, unless someone conducts a study, such as a double blind listening test, we have no evidence that the guitar sounds any better, and unless someone does another to see if there are lasting effects we don't know that either.

    All they did was place a device on one guitar, show evidence that measured amplitude increased while the device was working, then jump to the conclusion that the guitar sounded louder and better because of it.

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  17. #61
    Fingertips of leather Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Iím surprised that wood has knowledge and learns over time. And that itís learning is always successful in the desired direction.

    Just where is the woodís brain anyway? And when you cut it down, do all the little pieces have brains too?

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  19. #62
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Ah, there lies the root of the question.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  20. #63

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    I’m surprised that wood has knowledge and learns over time. And that it’s learning is always successful in the desired direction.

    Just where is the wood’s brain anyway? And when you cut it down, do all the little pieces have brains too?
    Certainly don’t know, but when I put Mr. Spruce in the oven, I’m pretty sure he was torrified.

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  22. #64

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Built a mandospanker long ago, strumming a mando all day with a doublepick loaded turntable made the open strings irritatingly loud, did nothing for fretted notes. Maybe if I'd had an Arthur Godfrey bluegrass mando chord machine......
    Western Colorado fiddle maker Homer Ayers had a fiddle holder with a deconed speaker with an alligator clip epoxied to the center. Connected the clip to the fiddle bridge and let it play classical music all day. Crude fiddles that sounded incredible.
    For my basses I prefer the Loar era Tone Time Traveller- that '23 Forder touring. Strap that puppy to the roof and cruise our crumbling rumble strip infrastructure. Glad it never rains here!
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  24. #65
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by oldwave maker View Post
    Built a mandospanker long ago, strumming a mando all day with a doublepick loaded turntable made the open strings irritatingly loud, did nothing for fretted notes. Maybe if I'd had an Arthur Godfrey bluegrass mando chord machine......
    Western Colorado fiddle maker Homer Ayers had a fiddle holder with a deconed speaker with an alligator clip epoxied to the center. Connected the clip to the fiddle bridge and let it play classical music all day. Crude fiddles that sounded incredible.
    For my basses I prefer the Loar era Tone Time Traveller- that '23 Forder touring. Strap that puppy to the roof and cruise our crumbling rumble strip infrastructure. Glad it never rains here!
    That method of inducing vibration into the bass, along with the heat from the roof, will surely cause it to open up in a short time.
    Tom

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  26. #66
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Haywood View Post
    That method of inducing vibration into the bass, along with the heat from the roof, will surely cause it to open up in a short time.
    You win!
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  28. #67
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by oldwave maker View Post
    Built a mandospanker long ago, strumming a mando all day with a doublepick loaded turntable made the open strings irritatingly loud, did nothing for fretted notes. Maybe if I'd had an Arthur Godfrey bluegrass mando chord machine......
    Western Colorado fiddle maker Homer Ayers had a fiddle holder with a deconed speaker with an alligator clip epoxied to the center. Connected the clip to the fiddle bridge and let it play classical music all day. Crude fiddles that sounded incredible.
    For my basses I prefer the Loar era Tone Time Traveller- that '23 Forder touring. Strap that puppy to the roof and cruise our crumbling rumble strip infrastructure. Glad it never rains here!
    I am so enthralled by the strumming machine. Genius.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  30. #68
    Registered User TheMandoKit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I am so enthralled by the strumming machine. Genius.
    Those of us who have Old Wave instruments can attest to the genius of Mr. Bussmann. 😸
    Last edited by TheMandoKit; Jul-29-2022 at 9:55pm.

  31. #69
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    But wait… there’s more! If you order right now, we’ll include another Tone Rattler for only 3 easy payments of $96.30 plus shipping and handling. But act fast! This is a limited time offer, call now!

  32. #70
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    Not measured were changes in humidity, room temperature, barometric pressure or any temperature increase on portions of the instrument connected directly to an electronic device. Even the consistency of the supplied voltage should be considered. Results of the experiment are subject to more questions since a microphone and computer were involved along with some software. Test twelve various brands of guitars in exactly the same method and compare the results. Will they all show a similar result? So many variables to consider, any faith in this single demonstration is slim. On the other hand, using one of these tone enhancement devices seems to cause no harm so if you've got the funds, it's your money.

  33. #71

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    One of my more humbling experiences as a music store employee when discussing the "finer points" of tone with my boss -- he said, "You're not a good enough musician to worry about such things!" Certainly embarrassing, but had some truth to it, too. I think it did motivate me to become a better player and practice more.

    Not saying this about Mike Compton, obviously....

  34. #72

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    This has been an interesting discussion with good arguments on both sides... 'provable' (valid evidence) or not. No dog in this hunt here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudmister View Post
    On the other hand, using one of these tone enhancement devices seems to cause no harm so if you've got the funds, it's your money.
    You're probably right, but 'seems' seems to be the operative word here (and in a lot of this discussion). And that's my main reason for not using any of these electric shakers.

    Seems to me that the passage of time and regular use will cause any and all natural change(s) to the instrument, good or bad that I want. Adding mechanical vibration just seems like unnecessary fatigue to glued joints etc over time. YMMV... or seem to anyway.
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

  35. #73

    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    JEStanek wrote: “For me best tone is a combination of how I hold the instrument, my technique, and the mix of strings and pick to get optimal tone.”
    It’s only human, of course, so many of us are intrigued by the mysteries of instruments opening up and machines and techniques to enhance that process. But even as I ponder the imponderables, a quiet voice inside reminds me that the flat-out guaranteed way to improve the tone is right there in my right hand. Speaking for myself, hitting the strings exactly right (to say nothing of hitting them in-time) improves the sound of my instrument by upwards of 50%. It’s less controversial and makes for shorter threads on MandolinCafe, but when it’s good to know the option is there and ready when I am.
    Last edited by Richard Mott; Jul-31-2022 at 8:56am.

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  37. #74
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    I agree that those who have the cash to try one is fine with me. However, here’s something for the rest of us to try:

    How about just get a quiet place to play and sit with your instrument and play and listen carefully to very sound that is coming out? Maybe take a simple phrase from a tune and slow it down. Play it over again and again, change the angle of your pick or use a different one. Let the notes ring or play staccato. Change the phrasing of your phrase similar to what an actor would do with a line. Put emphasis on different notes. Elongate some notes and shorten others. Listen as you play closer to the bridge and then further away. Play your mandolin as if you were trying it out for the first time in a store. Etc. etc. Sort of a musical meditation…
    Jim

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  39. #75
    Registered User rnjl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Using The Tone Traveler On Mike Compton's Mandolin

    I know nothing about the machines under discussion here. But I'll repeat a story I've told elsewhere. Many decades ago, when I was in college in the mid-80's in Chicago, Bill Monroe played the Old Town School of Folk Music and Special Consensus opened for them. At one point, Bill broke some strings, and the mando player from Special C, who was watching in the back, held up his A style mandolin and offered it to Bill who took it for the next couple of songs when someone was fixing his.

    When Special C played, the mandolin in the band sounded nothing at all like Bill Monroe.

    When Bill Monroe played that mandolin, it sounded almost exactly like Bill Monroe.

    I can't say there was no sound system adjustment to compensate, but it was the most dramatic demonstration of "it's the player, not the mandolin" that I ever saw.

    Which of course has never stopped me for one moment wanting more and better mandolins.

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