clueless music store techs?

[jim_n_virginia]

It ain't just at Guitar Center folks!

Put a call into Alpha Music in Va. Beach, VA. today to inquire about a Fishman M-200 bridge pickup for my mandolin. This is how the conversation went.


Alpha: Hello Alpha Music

ME: Hi I am wondering if I could talk to someone about a Fishman bridge pickup for my mandolin.

Alpha: Sure hold on I'll let you talk to one of our technicians, Walter is out of town but $%$#@ is here and he can help you.

ME: Thanks

Alpha: Hello? $%#@ here can I help you.

ME: Yeah Hi, I'd like to get a price on a Fishman mandolin Bridge pickup I saw you had there last week.

Alpha: Yeah let me see if we still have it... (much noise and rumbling around)....no I think she came and picked it up.

ME: Oh are you going to get any more?

Alpha: Yeah soon but I don't know when.

ME: Was the one you had the M-200 model or M-100 model.

Alpha: I don't know, it was the one you clipped on your bridge.

ME: You don't clip anything on a bridge with what I am looking for, the M-100 is a mandolin bridge pickup with an endpin jack that you attach to the tail piece and the M-200 is the same thing but with a clamp that you clamp to the edge of you instrument.

Alpha: Oh....

ME: Well is there anyway you can look up what one would cost if I order it through you guys.

Alpha: Yeah hold on I'll get a catalogue... (much noise and rumbling) yeah OK I'm looking at the Fishman catalogue and it says $219.00.....

ME: Oh OK thanks...

ALPHA: It's $219 .... but this is a 2004 catalogue

ME: Wha?... Then whats the cost now?

ALPHA: Probably a little more....

ME:Oh...well what would be the cost to install it?

ALPHA: I don't know but it's easy to install, what kind of mandolin do you have, is it flat or arched?

ME: It's arched..

ALPHA: The bridge is arched and made to fit the top of the mandolin

ME: Yeah but don't you have to sand it a little to make sure the bridge has full contact and fits the top of the mandolin?

ALPHA: Sand your mandolin?

ME: NO! the bridge to make sure it is a tight fit...

ALPHA: yeah well sometimes you do have to sand a little but most of the time they just fit.

ME: I see... well if I ordered M-100 from Alpha could you install an endpin jack in the end of my tail piece, I don't like the big clamp that holds the jack with the M-200

ALPHA: Oh I wouldn't mess with the tail piece I would just drill a hole in the side and put an end jack in there

ME: <in shock> Wha, you'd drill through the side?

ALPHA: Yeah you never wanna mess with the tail piece

ME: I have a $3,000 mandolin, If you drill through the side of it it will be hard to resell. Can't you install the endpin jack through the end block through the tail piece.

ALPHA: Look man your fighting me here... now YOU can do anything you want with your instrument, but if it were me I would not mess with the tail piece.

ME: Why not... I think there is a block of wood in there to drill through and support the jack and when or if I decide to sell my mandolin and revert it back to original I could just put the original bridge back on and buy another tail piece and cover up the hole.

ALPHA: <10 seconds of silence> Look you can do what ever you want and beside we don't have one someone bought the last one.

ME: Could you order one for me?

ALPHA: I don't know... I'll have to check

ME: Well I'll be over that way this afternoon, maybe I'll drop in and see if I can order it.

ALPHA: You can do anything you want

ME:OK well have a nice day and thanks for your help, I was just trying to get some info.

ALPHA: Yeah whatever... <click> #

# #

[jmkatcher]

Oh Lord. I can imagine (sort of) dropping off my instrument for a quick pickup installation and picking it up to find a hole drilled in the side.

[Tom C]

I would never let store touch my mandolin unluss they are mando savvy.
I would prefer to let my friend who does auto body work do that job. -he actually has build guitars and restored them and is very detailed at what he does.

[croonerexpress]

They’re mostly on a high and mighty power trip (the ones that act like this any way) because they work at a music store (kind of like guys that work in record stores.) and think they know more than anybody on earth about guitars/mandolins/pickups and so on and so on. George Gruhn could walk in and they would try to contradict something he said about guitars or mandolins…or big shiny rings!



I was in Railroad Bazaar a while back just to pick up a pickup I had ordered for my Gallagher. The guy asked me what it was going in and I told him "a Gallagher Doc Watson 12 fret" So he goes off into a rant about how American guitars and small shop luthiers are being put to shame by...and you wont believe this...Ibanez. Yep, Ibanez (no offense to any owners.) He takes down this butt-ugly purple acoustic Ibanez and told me that this was one of the best guitars he’s ever played. I said, "cool" and handed it back and pulled out my wallet (trying to give him the hint that I was ready to go.) But what made me loose it was I asked him how much they went for and he said, "you see what’s on the tag? That’s how much." I wanted to slam the purple plywood box across his face for that.

He also let me know his opinions about how Martins are probably the worst guitars ever made and how Steve via is god.

Then he asked me when I was bringing the guitar in the have 'him' install it. I looked at him like he had just described a plot to club a baby seal and said "I’m doing it myself." then he gave me a look like I was some dumb naïve kid who didn’t know what he was doing.

Hopefully one day I’ll be able to work in a music/cell phone/car speaker store.

[bjc]

Hello Jim, Just want to go to bat for Alpha...a little bit...sounds like you got someone in a bad mood...and I would not have been happy with that level of "service." I deal with Walter all the time...he's been doing work on my guitars and what nots for 15-20 year and he is indeed mando savy..he own at least two mandos, one an A-9 and he can play. He has helped me out a lot. I'm not sure who you spoke to, but if you deal with Walter, you'll find him very helpful and enthusiastic. No financial interest here, but if you want good help over there wait until walter gets back.

[neal]

Jim, admit it, after the 2nd question, you were jerkin' him, as I would have.

[jim_n_virginia]

Hello Jim, Just want to go to bat for Alpha...a little bit...sounds like you got someone in a bad mood...and I would not have been happy with that level of "service." I deal with Walter all the time...he's been doing work on my guitars and what nots for 15-20 year and he is indeed mando savy..he own at least two mandos, one an A-9 and he can play. He has helped me out a lot. I'm not sure who you spoke to, but if you deal with Walter, you'll find him very helpful and enthusiastic. No financial interest here, but if you want good help over there wait until walter gets back.

Brian I would be the first to admit that all my experiences at Alpha were good. The sales people are nice and for a privately owned music store they have a large and varied inventory.

I know Walter and his reputation. I have not had him work on any of my instruments yet but I know many, many people who have and they all have nothing but good things to say about him. But Walter was/is on vacation.

The person I talked with was a technician NOT a saleperson so evidently Walter is not the only tech person there at Alpha anymore. So it is concievable that you may bring your instrument for Walter to work on but get this person to work on your instrument instead. Walter is gone for a week and I bet this person is not just standing around.

I personally would not trust him to bevel my picks.

But in any case my point to the whole post is not to bash Alpha because it is a great store and one of my favorites but rather to counter the oft said notion that sales people at the big box stores (ie: G.C) are clueless and people at the Mom & Pop store treat you better and know more.

My experience tells me it goes BOTH ways.

[357mag]

Wow! Thats scary stuff. I believe if I had a three thousand dollar mandolin to be worked on---well, I wouldnt even know where to start. But I,d have to know the guy Reeeeeeeeal good.

[bjc]

Jim...point taken. And I know there are other other techs who work at Alpha. I had my Les Paul refretted up there by someone other than Walter and they did a great job. But all my mandolin needs are done by Walter himself (at least that is what I'm told), but the work comes out in good quality. I guess I skipped by the point that bad service can be recieved at places other than GC...

[kar]

I am that tech- You should first do your home work before ripping someone. Frankly I dont care if you rip me but I care about my employer who puts a lot of trust in me. First, it is vrey common practice to install an input on the bout of the instrument. The tail block is a very small piece of wood on a mandolin and does not need a half inch hole drilled through it. You run the risk of splitting it ! It is a structural integrity issue. Have you ever built a mandolin ? Didn't think so. You do know what a bout is I guess. Take a look at a $20K Gibson Super 400 that has a pickup installed. Where is the input ? Usually on the lower bout ! There is no need to interfere with the trapeze tail piece. Same with a mandolin.You route your cord through your strap and down to the input taking any stress off the cord and not doing any damage to the instrument.
You are probably not a real player or you would know these simple things, along with your pretentous friends that so quickly agreed with.
You should also in clude the entire conversation instead of just the parts that make you sound good. And if you know so much why are you calling me !
I have built and repaired mandolins, archtops, acoustics, and electrics for more than 20 years and am very comfortable with my knowledge and abilities but I am also open to new and better ideas. You learn something new each day that you work on fretted instruments. And I learned something today ! You ruined your chances of having your mandolin worked on by the 2 most qualified repair guys in southeastern VA.
Most real musicians dont bragg about how much they paid for an instrument and they certainly come to talk face to face with someone about their instrument. But then , I guess you just dont know any better except to flex your muscles at your key board.
Oh well, your lose, you might have learned something. Actually, in the long run, I or my partner might still work on your mandolin. I would at least know that it was done right and I would enjoy taking your money !
Ken Rice

[Mando4Life]

In an attempt to save this before it goes south...

I have a couple of questions; I'm not at all familiar with working on instruments but...

1) Isn't there normally a hole into the tail block already? I guess it would depend on the type of tailpiece. My weber has a hole through the tail block; could that serve as a pilot hole for the pickup drilling?

2) Based on relative thicknesses of the woods, wouldn't you be at a greater risk of splitting the 'lower bout' area which is thin versus the tail block?? Also, is there a risk for damaging the finish doing it through the 'lower bout'?

It brings up a good point I think. There should be other ways of mounting pickups.

Just curious and truly interested in getting some explanations.

Thanks,

WBL

[kar]

KAR,
You know, you can what if anything to death and you can trust someone or not , but there are only a couple of locations to install input. It is not rocket science. You can discuss it with people who know or with people who think they know. You have to be the judge. It is that simple. My life and work will go on and key board peope will spend thier wheels. Get out and talk and meet some folks that are in a position to help you and then decide. It wont break my heart either way !
Thanks,
Ken Rice

[jmcgann]

I think it is called an "endpin jack" for a good reason. Tech support at Fishman is easy to contact and they can set you straight on the way to go.

[Mando4Life]

kar,

thanks for sharing the wealth of knowledge you have.....

my question was a genuine inquiry. i was hoping we could spin this thread and get some useful insight; instead of letting it turn into a flame war.

i am not looking to install a pickup. i was just curious with respect to the methods you were referring to.

WBL

[Don Christy]

As the owner of a small business, I wonder what the owners of Alpha think of how Ken represents them on this forum.

Don

[glauber]

Oh wow... this is like the Twilight Zone. Every acoustic instrument i've seen that has a pickup, has either an endpin jack or a carpenter jack. Maybe i landed in some kind of parallel universe, where people install jacks on the side wall of their instruments, and technicians think that making threats to potential customers in an international Internet board is a good way to do business.

[Greenmando]

I have a A style someone put the jack in the side about 6 inches away from the tailpiece. Not happy with it, I am afraid something will bump it and crack the side. I would much rather have it in the tailpiece like Martin installs them.

No problem with drilling out the tailpiece block either, had to do it to one to install the Weber tailpiece on a different one.

[neal]

Kar, lighten up. #Nobody's on your tail. #Usually it's customary for one to respond with the facts about something in a friendly manner and try to do damage control and provide a little goodwill. #We that complain aren't always correct, we all know this. This happened a while back when one of the guys posted a few photos of a really nasty repair on an F-2-4? and the luthier that was getting flack posted his own explaination with photos ( I know this doesn't apply here) and was very cordial. # He managed to salvage the rep of his work and gain a bit of respect, at least to me.

Your post reminds me of a quote from Shakespeare "Methinks thou doth( or is it dost? #hmm..) protest too much". # Nothing against you, just a little advice.

And welcome to the board, we can use your insight and maybe you could learn/teach something from/to the great guys that frequent the builder's forum. #

As for me, a jack hole cut through the lower bout of anything but a <500$ #mandolin is sort of sacriligeous, but there are those that disagree. # Endpin is a lot cleaner. #But a microphone up close is even better.

[kar]

Point taken,
Thank you for the advice. I was just on the recieving end of a rude conversation and had a spin put on it instead of the reality of what was really said and with that, i'm gone!
Thanks again.

[jim_n_virginia]

Ken,
First off, the conversation I posted was exactly word for word that I remember.

And second... your post again shows your lack of knowledge of mandolins or acoustic instruments in general... AND your rudeness.

And you are right, I have never built a mandolin (never built a car neither but I still drive one) #but I know enough you don't drill holes in the side of a mandolin (or acoustic guitar) to install an end jack. You put it thought the end block and ANY woodworker knows you drill a small pilot hole and go up successively with bigger drill bits and you won't "split" your wood.

Also if you have worked on instruments for 20 years as you say I find it amazing that you seem to not know that you have to fit each and every bridge to any arch topped instrument as no top is exactly the same.

And as for your kind and gratious request to give me "one more chance to work on my mandolin" and "take my money" I think I will have to pass.

Like I said before ... after your comments I wouldn't trust you to bevel my picks. I'm not saying this to be mean. I really mean it.

Sorry my mandolin is going to Margarite at Fret Knot in Newport News.

OH yeah one last thing... when I mentioned that my mandolin was $3K I wasn't bragging... I see that this was your first post so maybe you don't know that $3K is not a lot of money for a mandolin. In fact it is about middle of the road. Why would I brag that I own a Ford Pinto.

Anyway my point to my post was to counter the popular notion that employees at the big box music store franchises were impolite, unscrupulous and uninformed.

Ken I see that this was your first post to the Mandolin Cafe. Probably because someone alerted you to my post. They may have done you a huge favor and not in the way you or they may think.

This is a great forum with TONS of info about mandolins here. If you would take the time to read and search the archives I think someone with as much experience and know how like you could learn a few things... or three. #

[kudzugypsy]

if i *were* to drop my mando or guitar off to have a pickup installed and the tech drilled the jack in the rib of my instrument, i would probably choke them to death right on the spot. a good lesson to make sure you go over any details with your tech. i dont even understand this mis-understanding...i have a fishman mando pickup and i'm sure the installation instructions call for an endpin mount for the jack...they even make the threaded jack like 2 inches long to fit thru the endblock. i wonder if i had one installed on a fiddle if they would install it on the rib where it would poke you in the neck.

[Ted Eschliman]

Gentlemen, pardon the interruption; consider, the world of luthiery is more "art" than "science."

There is frankly more than one way to skin a cat, and we have to accept that not everyone will accomplish the same ends with identical means.
This Discussion Board is an excellent venue for constructive solutions, alternatives, opinions, but it doesn't have to get personal.

Let's keep the dialogue polite. I think this is fascinating and it would disappointing to have to lock the thread down because we can't keep from being rude to each other.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

Personally, I would not want any holes drilled in a fine acousting instrument under any circumstances. If one is going to play amplified, I believe it's better to buy an instrument that's designed for that purpose in the first place.

Be that as it may, I've seen an external jack with a mounting plate that attaches to the strap pin, without compromising the integrity of the instrument in any way. If one is going to add a pickup to an existing instrument, it seems that this is the best way to go.

[bjc]

My apolgies here...I alerted the owner's wife, Debbie to the post and she inturn must have told Ken, because I enjoy doing business with the store and wanted to alert her to the "situation". I, of course have no personal knowledge of what happened here. I did not mean to start a war. What is needed here is a polite dialouge. I would like to see hugs all around.

[kar]

Thank you Brian,
I have the honor of working for one of the finest stores in VA and that is saying a lot. I was only standing up for myself because of a misunderstanding gone wild. I have extended my hand to the individual in a private email and that should be that. Well, it was fun while it lasted !!
Ken