Mic Clip : K&K, DPA, ...

[Fabian]

Hi there,

I had an unfortunate moment with the K&K "mic clamp" just a week before a show. The little bending plastic thing that holds the mic cracked, and I had to badly fix it so it could do the job at least for one or two event.
http://kksound.com/products/meridian.php#simple2

It's very surprising to me, considering the quality of the mic and the pre amp, to realize that this accessory comes such as a cheap thing. I really didn't use it often, and it seems it's meant to break at some point, as you need to force it, even lightly, every time you install the mic.

So I'm looking at another clip, hoping it could hold the K&K goose neck mic, but I'm not finding anything convincing.
This one from DPA seemed like a good option, but there are in this forum people complaining about the same kind of problem I had.
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/access...iolin-mandolin

Would someone have a suggestion for this matter ?

[jim simpson]

Fabian,
Sorry to hear of your clip breaking. It seems that this is a weak link in the system's design. I've been using the DPA clip with good result. I like that I can take it off unlike the clamps that must be left on the instrument. I'm not sure how you would adapt your mic to the DPA. I just a Pro 35 AT mic with my DPA clamp.

[BrianWilliam]

FWIW, I thought the dpa vc4099 was flimsy and didn't work well with my tone-gard. It is reported by many to work well so maybe it was me....

[foldedpath]

FWIW, I thought the dpa vc4099 was flimsy and didn't work well with my tone-gard. It is reported by many to work well so maybe it was me....

Were you able to find a placement where the bottom of the clamp feet could fit between the Tonegard? That might have been the problem. Or else not tightening the clamp enough.

For what it's worth... I've used the DPA 4099 mic and included clip for years with a Tonegard on my Lebeda F and haven't had any problems. I was able to find a space between the Tonegard bars on the bottom for the clamp feet (mic aimed at the bottom of the treble side F hole). And then it's just a question of tightening the clamp enough so it won't be knocked off with normal handling. It needs a firm grip on the mandolin, and then you pinch the "feet" to release the clamp when removing the mic.

[BrianWilliam]

Even with the tone-gard removed, I felt like the dpa clip wasn't secure. When it was tight enough, the clip was flexed. When the clip wasn't flexed, it wasn't tight. In either case it seemed like the clip would easily be bumped off. I never gigged with it because I was looking for a bomber solution that offered something more than clipping the mic on to my tone-gard. It didn't work for me. Maybe I'm too clumbsy.

[CelticDude]

I'm using the DPA mic clip with the AT Pro 35. I've had no problem, but, to get the gooseneck to fit, I took off the AT clip and gorilla-glued the gooseneck to the DPA clip. It's not going anywhere, but this may not be the route you want to take. It does take a bit of tightening to stay on the mando, but nothing I consider out of the ordinary. My problem is putting the mic where it can hear the mando but not get bumped by my hand as I play.

[foldedpath]

The DPA clamp is good but it's not perfect ("bomb proof"), in that it can be knocked off if you're not reasonably careful. It's basically a question of training yourself not to do that.


I usually perform sitting down, and only occasionally standing up if it's something like a contra dance. In either situation, I've just learned to keep my arm and hand away from the mic. The only real problem I've had is brushing the mic clamp against my right leg when seated. That can knock the mic out of position, or make noise, or potentially knock it off the mandolin. That happened a couple of times when I was first starting to use the mic... very embarrassing! I don't do that any more, I've just learned to avoid it. I've never found anything that sounded as good as the DPA 4099 on that little gooseneck, so I'll do whatever it takes to keep using it.

A completely bomb-proof solution might be something like one of those tiny Countryman Isomax mics mounted on a clip at the bottom of the F-hole, with the cord attached to the tailpiece and something like a mini-XLR connector that would let you keep the mic on the mandolin full-time, even when placed in a mandolin case. You would still have to train your hand not to hit the mic or it would make some noise, but it's not going anywhere.

However, I think the sound when clipped right into the F-hole would be inferior to a DPA 4099 or Pro 35 on a gooseneck (I've tried this kind of thing before). It picks up too much resonant airmass and not enough body resonance. A mounting like that is also more prone to picking up handling noise. Getting just an inch or so away from the F-hole captures more of the body resonance so it sounds more natural, and the gooseneck mount practically eliminates any handling noise. The trade-off is just having to be a bit more careful to stay away from it when playing.

[Fabian]

Thanks for the feedback everyone !

I surely understand the interaction problems with the right hand and the mic. My instrument has an A shape so the mic is set up at a different location but the problem is still the same. That's why I'm considering using a static mic rather than a gooseneck, as it seems to me that when I use a gooseneck, it will eventually become a limitation when it comes to tone variation (playing near or far the bridge) or nuances. But when you don't have the budget nor the tech guys of the punch brothers, it might not be that easy to do that in any live situation. But that's another topic.

So it seems I should give it a try with the DPA clamp. I hope it will be able to hold the K&K mic.

[almeriastrings]

I have both ATM350 and DPA4099's (several of them, with clamps) - and I tend to agree that while the DPA clamping system is incredibly flexible, it is not as "tough" or "solid" as the AT clamp (provided you fix the AT clamp to a finger rest). That is super solid. Like this:






I have not used a Meridian mic, but if that gooseneck section is flat (as it appears), not round, it could be awkward to adapt other clamps to it. You can adapt an ATM clamp to take a DPA, and vice-versa, but they both use very small diameter round gooseneck sections.. you could probably do it with fine cable ties and possibly adhesive... but it will almost certainly not fit without some modifications.

Here's a closeup of a DPA clamp adapted to take an ATM350

[foldedpath]

Just to show that we all have different ideas about this, I don't think I could use Almeriastring's method of clamping the mic in the photos above, without knocking it with my picking hand. My mandolin doesn't have a finger rest anyway, but for me it would be too close to the picking zone.

Here's what the DPA 4099 looks like on my mandolin. It's far enough down the body that I never have to worry about knocking it with my hand:



This doesn't show the Velcro strap I use as a safety, wrapped around the clamp and the Tonegard. I used an ATM350 in that location before the 4099, with the gooseneck wrapped around the body of the mandolin and clipped to the back of the Tonegard. No right or wrong here, just different ways to mount the mic.

[DaveMorehouse]

Do either of you using the dpa 4099 experience issues with feedback? I would be using it in a noisy bar environment where the band's space is tight. I am close to the speakers and the audience is right on top of us. My apologies to Fabian for hijacking the thread. PM me with responses if you prefer.

Once again, sorry for the misdirection,
Dave

[Fabian]

I don't have a finger rest as well, and the body hole is not at the same place, so the options are different.
The red arrow shows where I usually put the clamp and the mic.



And indeed, it seems the K&K mic won't fit in with the dpa clamp. I've send an email about that to a seller. We'll see what they think.

I don't know, I'm kind of lost. That would be quite a pity to buy another expensive microphone just because I can't find a way to attach it to the instrument. Maybe I should try to build something on my own, even though I'm not so good with those things...

[almeriastrings]

Relevant question.... in some situations, yes - you may well find feedback to be a problem. Both of these (DPA and ATM) are, after all, microphones and therefore are not immune to the laws of acoustics and physics. In noisy bars, close to speakers - you may find having a 'plan B' in place is well worth it. Something simple, like a K&K Twin. My own 'Plan B' is an AKG C411(condenser element transducer) installed internally, running out to a Headway EDB-2 Preamp/EQ/DI box... but I only use that when absolutely essential. I prefer microphones, but in situations like you describe, they can be more trouble than they are worth (and few in such places are likely to hear much difference anyway!).

[almeriastrings]

I don't know, I'm kind of lost. That would be quite a pity to buy another expensive microphone just because I can't find a way to attach it to the instrument. Maybe I should try to build something on my own, even though I'm not so good with those things...

This is how I fix a DPA, by the way...



It is pretty solid.. no real problem.

With your mandolin I would try again with the supplied K&K mount.... and see if you can tie the mic on there with very small, but strong, plastic cable ties. They often work for jobs like this...

If it still causes a problem, I would suggest maybe looking at a small lavalier ('tie clip' or lapel) microphone with a simple clip at the edge of the sound hole. These can work pretty well, are easy to fit and remove and are not too expensive.

AT PRO 70

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Audio-Te...73887988844.gc

[Michael H Geimer]

So, I'll be playing with an AT PRO35 tomorrow, and this will be my first time using a clip-on. I think have a good mounting position, but we'll see. Any top tier advice, do's and don't of using a fixed position mic like this. How do you tune quietly?

We'll be providing the main PA for the gig, so I have plenty of option about how to set-up for the show. Would greatly appreciate any tips. I'm typically not a mandolin player when I play amplified shows, so this is new terrain.

[foldedpath]

Regarding feedback with the DPA 4099, I've never had any problems with it, but yes, it can be a problem with any clip-on mic if you play in situations other than those I've experienced, or without the right gear and understanding of how PA systems work.

In a former Folk/Blues band, we often played a particular bar that was very reflective, and with plenty of crowd noise. Potentially a nightmare for feedback. The singer wanted her floor monitor loud to hear herself against the bar noise, which meant we needed the instruments loud in the monitors too. We should have been using in-ear monitors in that situation, but it wasn't the right band for it.

I ran the PA system and used a rackmount Sabine FBX dynamic "feedback exterminator" to keep things under control. I locked in most of the frequency bands during sound check, and left a few floating to clamp down on any inadvertent spikes during the show. A feedback reduction feature like this is now available in some of the newer compact digital mixers. Automatic version are even showing up in some powered speakers (which is the wrong place for it, in my opinion). Gear like this isn't a magic bullet. There is a limit to what it can do, but it will give you a few db of gain in the monitors that you wouldn't get otherwise.

I don't play bar gigs any more (thank goodness). Now it's mostly "light Celtic" background music for wedding gigs where we're either outdoors, or in quieter indoor situations like the reception, where feedback isn't a problem. So I sold off the feedback reducer to keep the PA rig simple and portable.

If you're playing with stage volume that's just out of control, or you have to work with a drummer and electric guitar player, then the extra gain you can get before feedback with a pickup is the only way to go. That's the extreme case though. A clip-on mic can work in a wide variety of situations if you're careful with monitor placement, you keep stage volume under control, and then (only if necessary) you use a feedback control unit.

[jim simpson]

So, I'll be playing with an AT PRO35 tomorrow, and this will be my first time using a clip-on. I think have a good mounting position, but we'll see. Any top tier advice, do's and don't of using a fixed position mic like this. How do you tune quietly?

We'll be providing the main PA for the gig, so I have plenty of option about how to set-up for the show. Would greatly appreciate any tips. I'm typically not a mandolin player when I play amplified shows, so this is new terrain.

I use one of these to mute for tuning: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_Switch.html

I don't experience feedback issues with my AT PRO35 and I use a floor monitor.

[almeriastrings]

It always pays to keep stage volume as low as you can... it not only greatly reduced feedback problems but will really 'clean up' the FOH sound too, as there will be less bleed, less out-of-phase reflections and similar unwanted "mush" getting into your sound system. As for levels before feedback,you can get very good levels from the DPA4099, the ATM350 and the PRO35. Plenty for me... the only time they might be an issue is in a really bad room, very close to speakers or monitors - of if you have someone running the sound who is inexperienced with condenser microphones and acoustic instruments. If you get both together, that's when a 'Plan B' is useful. The sound quality from all of these mics is very good indeed.