'True Temperament' intonated fretboards

[j. condino]

During the years that I worked for Dream Guitars, every single day I got to play some of the finest guitars in the world in any price range. Some of the customers were unbelievable high maintenance fussy whiners who were absolute nutcase complainers about intonation. 98% of the time, the instrument worked fine and a competent player had zero issues; the number one intonation issue was almost always poor left hand technique. Many people would much rather be sold expensive snake oil than admit that they should spend more time practicing.....

J.
Condino.com

[Wes Brandt]

Although like you I too love the many scales and modes that can be used in music, I am still open to the major scale.

As great a composer as Bela Bartok said that there's still plenty of good music waiting to be written in the key of C!

That was like, what, ….80? 100? years ago ….and I'm pretty sure we've used it all up by now.

Bartok! I love(d) his music…and even more, his contemporary Debussy. Then on to the more "dissonant" classical composers, until they finally try to deliberately wreck any sense of key or tonality …or rhythm … which can be quite interesting until they cross that last line …(for me)

Turns out there's a lot of "Youtubes" under "True Temperament" exhibiting this fretting system …here's one now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEOY...=RDNq4OyQ9m_f4

Anyway, this is probably not the right place for this discussion, where is the underground/experimental mandolin music section?

[belbein]

Nearly everybody has better hearing than I do, at this point. But it seems to me, in my benighted state, that the only time this incredible precision in tuning matters is if you are playing alone in a soundproof booth with no other instruments. If you add a banjo, a guitar, a fiddle, a bass, bar noise, drunks yelling for waiters, frat boys yelling at each other, the sound of breaking glass ... heck, then there's no way to know whether you're playing a true tempered instrument or not.

[Jess L.]

Nearly everybody has better hearing than I do, at this point. But it seems to me, in my benighted state, that the only time this incredible precision in tuning matters is if you are playing alone in a soundproof booth with no other instruments. If you add a banjo, a guitar, a fiddle, a bass, bar noise, drunks yelling for waiters, frat boys yelling at each other, the sound of breaking glass ... heck, then there's no way to know whether you're playing a true tempered instrument or not.

Good point. I never used to worry too much about being super-precisely tuned until I started trying to make little recordings for other people to listen to. Then if something was really horribly out of tune I felt like it was permanently engraved in stone along with all the other glaring errors. Whereas playing live, there are so many variables, as you mentioned, and people aren't as likely to notice every little detail. Of course that's not to be construed as an excuse for shoddy playing, but it's hard enough keeping in tune on drafty stages or outdoors in sun or cold, sometimes "close enough" has to suffice. Although my experience is with folk stuff, I have no idea about classical etc.

[Explorer]

Nearly everybody has better hearing than I do, at this point. But it seems to me, in my benighted state, that the only time this incredible precision in tuning matters is if you are playing alone in a soundproof booth with no other instruments. If you add a banjo, a guitar, a fiddle, a bass, bar noise, drunks yelling for waiters, frat boys yelling at each other, the sound of breaking glass ... heck, then there's no way to know whether you're playing a true tempered instrument or not.

I guess my thoughts are, even if you have noise, waiters, drunks, whatever, do what you can which is under your own control.

I've witnessed performances where people embraced "good enough" tuning... and it isn't pretty.

[Jess L.]

I've witnessed performances where people embraced "good enough" tuning... and it isn't pretty.

Agree.

Although "good enough" can mean entirely different things to different people, a wide range there. It can be fairly precise, or super sloppy, depending on the person.

I got a reminder of that recently, when a newbie showed up at a practice session and began playing so far out of tune it was ridiculous, some of their strings were probably one entire fret off. They thought they didn't need to tune up because they'd already tuned up a week earlier, and they thought it should still be in tune.

[lenf12]

Blissfully ignorant, don't burst their bubble...and don't invite them back...

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Stephen Perry]

Loved the gamba, just push the gut frets to where they wanted to be. Gut strings and gut frets - I always had something to mess with! Usually while playing!!!!

[Wes Brandt]

I have for a long time believed that at that point when things really "click" or come together in music, good musicians are consciously and perhaps subconsciously "correcting" or altering pitches in transit, messing around with the relationships or intervals within the harmony, making them perfect or not …"getting in the groove", "kicking.…" however you want to say it, we like to hear it …. which is easy on fretless instruments but also done on fretted stringed instruments, especially metal strung guitars… some musical styles having a lot more bending then others.

so...I make sure when setting intonation on anything to err on the side of slightly flat because its's much easier to bend up, by just changing finger pressure which happens some naturally perhaps, than down, which is difficult or impossible ...and then you may even want to hear a note that is a few cents flat because it makes an interval "correct".

[mirwa]

Amazing the amount of opinions and views on the topic, especially from the many who may have never played a guitar or instrument setup with true temperament frets. yet many negative comments.

I doubt there is even one poster on this whole topic that has even set a guitar or instrument up with these frets, let alone installed them to an instrument to start with.

One should not knock, what they do not know.

Steve

[DavidKOS]

Amazing the amount of opinions and views on the topic, especially from the many who may have never played a guitar or instrument setup with true temperament frets. yet many negative comments.

I doubt there is even one poster on this whole topic that has even set a guitar or instrument up with these frets, let alone installed them to an instrument to start with.

I do not own one of those special fingerboard instruments - but I have played them at NAMM shows and such.

So no, I never installed a weird fingerboard nor set up anyone's wiggly fretted guitar, but at least I've played them, and do not find the need to have one.

[mirwa]

Well done for you. Your opinion of them is clear "weird fretboard" and "wiggly fretted guitar"

Others love them. We all do not all drive the same car, its called tastes and preferences.

We all have different tastes in music as well, that is why some people are famous and some are not.

If the person playing there guitar benefits from these, then there the best thing in the world,

steve

[Ron McMillan]

Amazing the amount of opinions and views on the topic, especially from the many who may have never played a guitar or instrument setup with true temperament frets. yet many negative comments.

I thought that's what a forum was for, airing your views. If you are surprised that some of the views come with little experience to back them up, then maybe you've not been paying too much attention to what goes on here.

[DavidKOS]

Well done for you. Your opinion of them is clear "weird fretboard" and "wiggly fretted guitar"

Others love them. We all do not all drive the same car, its called tastes and preferences.

We all have different tastes in music as well, that is why some people are famous and some are not.

If the person playing there guitar benefits from these, then there the best thing in the world,

steve

I have no problem with other people using them.

I have a problem when folks try to pass these sorts of things off as something better than the regular works-for-Segovia-and-everyone-else-guitar fretting.

And, I can claim to actually have tried them and as I have studied the matter of intonation for quite some time feel qualified to point out "the emperor's new clothes". Additionally I have played a lot on Turkish instruments that are fretted to give just intonation, so I know what it sounds like to play in both 12 ET and Pythagorean tunings.

I stick to my opinion, and choose the terms "weird fretboard" and "wiggly fretted guitar" for a reason!

[FLATROCK HILL]

Amazing the amount of opinions and views on the topic, especially from the many who may have never played a guitar or instrument setup with true temperament frets. yet many negative comments.

I doubt there is even one poster on this whole topic that has even set a guitar or instrument up with these frets, let alone installed them to an instrument to start with.

One should not knock, what they do not know.

Steve

I don't own and have never driven a Smart Car either, but I'm sure I don't want one.

[Bertram Henze]

I don't own and have never driven a Smart Car either, but I'm sure I don't want one.

As one who has I can tell you that prejudice can actually deepen into conviction with experience...

[mirwa]

I do not own one of those special fingerboard instruments - but I have played them at NAMM shows and such.

Having played them at shows like NAMM, definetly does not quantify a person as competent in making an assesment of the system.

There are some very basic facts.

Fact one. The position of frets normally on a guitar are a compromise.
Fact two. People learn to live with this, as they do not have a choice
Fact three. We as luthiers are always compensating nuts and saddles to achieve the best intonation across the frets.
Fact four. Some people are experts at things they know nothing about

Now I take my hat of to anyone that has the guts to try and make things better, I do it daily on a smaller scale and so do other luthiers, we are constantly trying to make guitars better for the customers that own them.

The true temperament system at least addresses the first fact above "compromised fret positions", just because you had a play on one at a show in NAMM, makes your contribution to the fact, kind of minor, if you could not hear the difference in the instrument, then I question your hearing.

I concur fretless systems are an even a better option if you like playing fretless, but for those that want frets, its a hard system to improve further on

Yes, I have 3 guitars, a taylor 910, A Gretsch Electromatic, and a tele with ""wiggly Frets"".

I have installed TT frets and modified peoples guitars to suit.

You want snake oil, then go for something like plastic tone enhancers, pretty offensive saying these are snake oils, when clearly physics and common sense say they are not.

Steve

[Wes Brandt]

I did a little more surfing, I'm under the impression that they offer several different temperament versions available… but their website has been down all day.

The problem I see is that for a given temperament, for standard guitar tuning, each key will have a slightly different layout of intervals and will work well in some and not so much in others ...and then what happens when you play with other instruments that are in equal temperament?

Since I also build viols, I am totally aware of all this stuff and it works with viols because they can move their frets around for different keys and really play in only a few keys anyway … I think it's a beautiful sound and an interesting idea to bring into modern music ...but with guitar, you don't usually think of limiting yourself to several keys, which you would have to do. Or who knows… you may find some really odd/interesting slightly dissonant harmony.

[DavidKOS]

Having played them at shows like NAMM, definetly does not quantify a person as competent in making an assesment of the system.
.....
The true temperament system at least addresses the first fact above "compromised fret positions", just because you had a play on one at a show in NAMM, makes your contribution to the fact, kind of minor, if you could not hear the difference in the instrument, then I question your hearing.

Hey, man if you want to rag on me for telling it like it is, fine.

You have no idea how good my hearing is, have no idea how much I've studied temperaments and intonation, music theory, music in just intonation systems, etc.

"Fact one. The position of frets normally on a guitar are a compromise."

I've said so all along, so is 12 tone equal temperament tuning. A working compromise.

"Fact two. People learn to live with this, as they do not have a choice"

This is not a fact but your supposition. People have many choices, including guitars that are fretted in many other tuning systems.

"Fact three. We as luthiers are always compensating nuts and saddles to achieve the best intonation across the frets."

So are we guitar, mandolin and other string instruments techs.

"Fact four. Some people are experts at things they know nothing about"

Now you're just insulting me. You do not know my qualifications and many years as a musicologist, instrument designer, buyer, repairman, and professional player.

So that makes you an "expert at things they know nothing about" too. Except I do know more than you would ever admit about music and tunings.

I have played those instruments more than once. Maybe before you ever did. What do you want, my timecard to prove I'm qualified? How many hours do I need to play on similar instruments to say that this sort of overcomplication is not needed for almost all musical situations?

And since most musicians, bandleaders, producers, etc. use standard fretting, do you consider them to have defective hearing?

I assume since you install these contraptions you make money on them. I assume a fretjob with crooked frets costs more than a standard fret job.

So should I accuse you of mercenary reasons to push these fingerboards? Or is that as unfair as your accusations to me?

Feel free to purchase any musical snake oil you guys want.

[DavidKOS]

The problem I see is that for a given temperament, for standard guitar tuning, each key will have a slightly different layout of intervals and will work well in some and not so much in others ...and then what happens when you play with other instruments that are in equal temperament?

Since I also build viols, I am totally aware of all this stuff and it works with viols because they can move their frets around for different keys and really play in only a few keys anyway …

Mr. Brandt, as a viol maker and player, knows about this stuff - if you sweeten any particular key's temperament in 12 tone ET tuning, there is a negative in that keys at the other end of the circle of 5ths will have noticeable wolf tones.

But I'm sorry, I don't know anything about this according to some.

[mirwa]

Hey, man if you want to rag on me for telling it like it is, fine.................Feel free to purchase any musical snake oil you guys want.

You felt the need to address my initial post with sarcasm, without bringing a single thing to the table except sarcasm.

I have highlighted the reasons I believe they are a good product and not snake oil, but some peoples need to argue that without any backing amazes me sometimes.

Yes they do cost more than a normal refret as there is more work involved in fitting them, if you ever fit them you will understand, anyone can hang a shingle outside there shed at home and call themselves a luthier / repairer. The term these days unfortunatley does not mean a lot, gone are the days of hand skills and chisels.

No I am not associated with the company, but take my hat of to any company that wishes to bring new things to the market.

Steve

[Explorer]

Amazing the amount of opinions and views on the topic, especially from the many who may have never played a guitar or instrument setup with true temperament frets. yet many negative comments.

I doubt there is even one poster on this whole topic that has even set a guitar or instrument up with these frets, let alone installed them to an instrument to start with.

One should not knock, what they do not know.

Steve

I can state with confidence that at least one member in this topic skipped my post regarding a small part of my own personal experiences with the original inventor of a fretboard system which achieves the same thing.

I'm interested in experiencing your view of whether each degree towards embracing a system which favors one particular intonation method disadvantages other scales. That's a fact, so I'm having a hard time understanding how doing attacks will remove those hard facts against such a system... or, rather, against it if one wishes to play in more than one temperament and its related keys.

I'm looking forward to it!

[mirwa]

I actually had read all your comments and I agree the only true way is a fretless board, ref post 67.

But not all people like fretless boards.

There is a compromise every time we play an instrument, even with fretless ones.

The goal is to find something that works for that person, saying something like its snake oil simply shows a persons lack of true understanding.

Steve

[DavidKOS]

You felt the need to address my initial post with sarcasm, without bringing a single thing to the table except sarcasm.
.......
Yes they do cost more than a normal refret as there is more work involved in fitting them

I apologize if my sense of humor was too sarcastic.

Again, good on your for installing these fretting systems - you must be a skilled luthier to do so - but please don't assume everyone that doesn't rush to use one - or has LOGICAL reasons for refuting the system - is ignorant.

A wise forum member gave me some advice, and in spite of my long-term interest in this issue,