Gibson Estimate Shock

[Jeff Mando]

My impression has always been that Nashville was an expensive place to have guitar repair done, not just Gibson, but Gruhn, Glaser, and others. That being said, there are some very talented repair people who live and work there and I've seen some fantastic work. I worked out of Memphis for years and we couldn't charge half of the going rate in Nashville. I guess a phone call to Martin would quickly tell you if Gibson is out of line on their pricing. I guess if you called four or five places in Nashville you could find out in about 15 minutes what a fretjob goes for in that town. I wonder if Big Joe Vest is still around, he would know the going rates for Nashville.

On a related note, somewhere in my archives I saved a repair estimate from Gruhn's from the mid-80's that would qualify as high comedy (that is why I saved it!) I believe the guitar in question was a 20's Gibson, but the amount of work suggested exceeded the value of the guitar at that time.

[JeffD]

you know I agree to some extent that big names charge big bucks,'cos they can. .

And the small names don't because they can't.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From John Hamlett - " I think the big name companies base their prices on what they can get people to pay.". I agree to an extent,but i still think that their 'basic' price is set to include the 'overheads',then they simply bump it up. Regarding the 'makers' knowing more than 'journeyman' luthiers,maybe we expect the original maker to actually care about their products & to do an especially good job - or am i just being naive ?,
Ivan

[Big Joe]

When I ran the Gibson repair and restoration our prices were based on a formula used to ensure the price covered the cost of materials, labor, overhead, disposal of materials, and some profit for Gibson. The overhead was higher than most small shops but we had a large facility with some of the best luthiers working on the instruments. They still have some great men working on them, and costs have not gone down over the years. It's not higher because they can, but set at a price that they can. The philosophy was that if it could not be profitable, it wasn't going to be done. That was a requirement from corporate down, and it should be. When I left and opened my own facility our prices were substantially lower. Rob Guthrie was trained by us and is still doing work and would be happy to do your mandolin. You would be very happy with his work, and his prices would be substantially less than Gibson, but the quality as good or better. If you are interested in his contact information send me a message and I will give it to you.

[multidon]

Just as having the Gibson name on the headstock has cache, so would being able to document that the repair was done by Gibson.

[Jeff Hildreth]

"The philosophy was that if it could not be profitable, it wasn't going to be done."

"Profitability"comes in all flavors from modest to obscene.

Pricing is often the carburettor adjustment plan.."screw it in 'til it chokes and back it out a quarter turn."

Disclosure..in the corporate world I taught business management, financial statement analysis, customer service, etc.

[k0k0peli]

Pricing is often the carburettor adjustment plan.."screw it in 'til it chokes and back it out a quarter turn."

Per Big Joe's comment, I won't accuse Gibson, but in various realms I have noticed a process I call "trolling for suckers". Price an item or service quite high. Eventually, someone will bite, and if enough do, profit is made. Studies indicate many people feel that paying more for something means it is worth more. A high-end name brand exaggerates the feeling. Do we get what we pay for?

[Jeff Mando]

"The philosophy was that if it could not be profitable, it wasn't going to be done."

"Profitability"comes in all flavors from modest to obscene.

Pricing is often the carburettor adjustment plan.."screw it in 'til it chokes and back it out a quarter turn."

Disclosure..in the corporate world I taught business management, financial statement analysis, customer service, etc.

These could be quotes from Alec Baldwin's speech in Glengarry Glen Ross.

[sunburst]

Simply put, when I worked "at the factory", the company charged $XXX for work that I did under their name. I can't get away with charging as much under my own name, even though the same guy is doing the work. It is true that the overhead was higher at "the factory", and that a company needs to make more money to cover expenses, but that has nothing to do with people being willing to pay more for the same work; the name is what does that.

[Emmett Marshall]

When I ran the Gibson repair and restoration our prices were based on a formula used to ensure the price covered the cost of materials, labor, overhead, disposal of materials, and some profit for Gibson. The overhead was higher than most small shops but we had a large facility with some of the best luthiers working on the instruments. They still have some great men working on them, and costs have not gone down over the years. It's not higher because they can, but set at a price that they can. The philosophy was that if it could not be profitable, it wasn't going to be done. That was a requirement from corporate down, and it should be. When I left and opened my own facility our prices were substantially lower. Rob Guthrie was trained by us and is still doing work and would be happy to do your mandolin. You would be very happy with his work, and his prices would be substantially less than Gibson, but the quality as good or better. If you are interested in his contact information send me a message and I will give it to you.

Thanks Joe for explaining the paradigm at Gibson. If I had the money to burn, I might have let them do it, but at that cost, I'd have trouble looking at myself in the mirror. PM sent to ya.

[Emmett Marshall]

Emmet, have you searched the builder section? Maybe there's someone there who might help.
Just a suggestion.
Good point Tobin, when I had to estimate on jobs "we" really didn't want to get involved with, I would increase the price for "hassle factor". There were sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, and the shop still ended up doing the job.
Win some, lose some.

Yep...looked at all 390 of them. Only one is within driving distance, and he is so far behind right now that he isn't taking in any new repair work until 2016.

[Petrus]

Per Big Joe's comment, I won't accuse Gibson, but in various realms I have noticed a process I call "trolling for suckers". Price an item or service quite high. Eventually, someone will bite, and if enough do, profit is made. Studies indicate many people feel that paying more for something means it is worth more. A high-end name brand exaggerates the feeling. Do we get what we pay for?

I sell stuff on eBay (instruments and books mainly) and I'll usually post a fairly, shall we say, optimistic Buy It Now price, and an opening bid price much lower. I might put something on with a BIN of $500 and a minimum opening bid of $120. Often times, an item will end up selling with only 1 bid, usually entered on the very last hours of the auction (not an uncommon occurrence on eBay.)

The buyer ends up very pleased with himself that he "got one over" one me, when in fact, $120 was about what I was expecting for the item. Had I set it up with a BIN of $120 and an opening bid of, say, $50, I would likely have ended up selling at a loss.

[Timbofood]

Sorry Emmett, seemed like a good idea at the time. Good that Big Joe is around!
I have an unfair advantage, two friends and then Elderly about an hour and a half away.
That and the fact I don't seem to need much repair. Last fret job was two years now and not playing a billion gigs, should last a while.

[Bernie Daniel]

"The philosophy was that if it could not be profitable, it wasn't going to be done."

"Profitability"comes in all flavors from modest to obscene.

Pricing is often the carburettor adjustment plan.."screw it in 'til it chokes and back it out a quarter turn."

Disclosure..in the corporate world I taught business management, financial statement analysis, customer service, etc.

But there are a vanishing number or folks who even know what a carburetor even is -- and much few still who would still who would know how to adjust the mixture!

[Emmett Marshall]

Sorry Emmett, seemed like a good idea at the time. Good that Big Joe is around!
I have an unfair advantage, two friends and then Elderly about an hour and a half away.
That and the fact I don't seem to need much repair. Last fret job was two years now and not playing a billion gigs, should last a while.

I appreciate the ideas Tim! Actually, it was fun going through that entire builder's list. It provided an interesting overview of what parts of the country seem to have the most mandolin resources. Yep, it's great to have access to guys like Joe. The truth about Gibson is that Joe must have managed the department so efficiently while he was there, that they simply had to raise prices after he left because everyone started slacking. I do have a lead on a guy in Bozeman, (a place I can drive to), so I'm going to call next week, but if that doesn't pan out - the mando is going to Joe's buddy, if he'll do it.

I've been doing some thinking about this pricing stuff. Today I was thinking about mandolin MSRP. What on earth is the point of MSRP? Does anyone actually pay it? If so, I would think it is just a few? It was the same thing with Saxophones. Companies would always advertise, for example, "Selmer Saxophone MSRP $13,349.00," but "Sale Price $9999.00" and free shipping. I just don't get the point of doing this.

[Timbofood]

It is pretty cool to see how many builders are out there! Glad you found someone within driving distance and have a backup.

Pricing thoughts is an area I think I should just avoid, I can speak from what have done and what I have paid.

[k0k0peli]

I've been doing some thinking about this pricing stuff. Today I was thinking about mandolin MSRP. What on earth is the point of MSRP? Does anyone actually pay it? If so, I would think it is just a few? It was the same thing with Saxophones. Companies would always advertise, for example, "Selmer Saxophone MSRP $13,349.00," but "Sale Price $9999.00" and free shipping. I just don't get the point of doing this.

Sure you do! It's all psychology. Enough studies have shown that many people are attracted to 'bargains' real or imagined. It's like selling the sizzle (the name brand). And some hurried suckers actually pay MSRP. Go figure.

[Jeff Mando]

I've been doing some thinking about this pricing stuff. Today I was thinking about mandolin MSRP. What on earth is the point of MSRP? Does anyone actually pay it? If so, I would think it is just a few? It was the same thing with Saxophones. Companies would always advertise, for example, "Selmer Saxophone MSRP $13,349.00," but "Sale Price $9999.00" and free shipping. I just don't get the point of doing this.

40+ years ago, buyers in small town American paid MSRP all the time, that is how business was done. You went to your local store, picked out something you liked and paid the price, no negotiating or not much, maybe throw in some strings or a strap to flavor the deal, but yep, people paid FULL BLOWN RETAIL. Some stores did their own financing and had payment plans, as well. (and got ya for interest, on top of that) Better deals were found in big cities where there was more competition, pricewise. In an age before the internet and super discounts, I first remember in the 70's seeing discount catalogs advertised in the back of the guitar magazines, stereo magazines and camera magazines. In 1973 or so I was in the market for a Canon FTb 35mm SLR camera--not the top of the line, but a good mid-level camera. My local small town shop asked full retail for it, I believe $469.99 with normal lens. The ads in the back of the photo magazines listed it at several places in New York for $249.99 with the normal lens, plus by buying out of state there was no sales tax, which saved an additional $25 bucks or so. I showed the ad to our local store and instead of trying to match the price, they used intimidation in telling me the stuff was probably stolen or damaged or that they would take my money and I'd never see the camera. Well being the cheapskate that I am, I ordered the camera and everything went fine. Paying an extra $240 or so was NOT an option for me. SOME STORES back then actually charged more than MSRP, if they could get away with it. My buddy bought a brand new early 70's D-35 Martin and paid around $1200 for it at a local store. The world has changed a lot due to Guitar Center, Musicians Friend, the internet, etc.........

This was across the board, too -- men's suits were sold at local toggery shops, there was no Men's Suit Exchange....Levi's were sold at full retail......

somewhat straying from the topic of fretjobs, but I guess in keeping with the topic of corporate price gouging.

[houseworker]

I was shocked that Gibson pitched their estimate that low.

[Petrus]

I've been doing some thinking about this pricing stuff. Today I was thinking about mandolin MSRP. What on earth is the point of MSRP? Does anyone actually pay it? If so, I would think it is just a few? It was the same thing with Saxophones. Companies would always advertise, for example, "Selmer Saxophone MSRP $13,349.00," but "Sale Price $9999.00" and free shipping. I just don't get the point of doing this.

There's that Buy It Now psychology at work again. Great minds stink alike.

[Petrus]

Just as having the Gibson name on the headstock has cache, so would being able to document that the repair was done by Gibson.

Indeed!

Also, the Gibson name not only has cache, it also takes cash to keep it up.

[allenhopkins]

...I've been doing some thinking about this pricing stuff. Today I was thinking about mandolin MSRP. What on earth is the point of MSRP? Does anyone actually pay it? If so, I would think it is just a few? It was the same thing with Saxophones. Companies would always advertise, for example, "Selmer Saxophone MSRP $13,349.00," but "Sale Price $9999.00" and free shipping. I just don't get the point of doing this.

1. There is some market value to "factory re-fret," rather than "the guy down the street did a re-fret," even if the quality of work is the same. And, Bill Monroe sent his mandolins back to Gibson for maintenance. Of course, he then gouged their logo out of the headstock because he didn't like their work -- there's that...

2. The retailer commonly pays the distributor about 50% of the "suggested retail" or "list" price for a musical instrument. What he/she then does to discount the selling price, is up to the dealer. If the dealer pays $500 for an instrument with a $1000 list price, he/she can offer "40% off list," sell it for $600, and still make a 20% profit. That may or may not be enough to keep the store open, but you'll find (or used to find) discounts in that range from mail-order and on-line sellers, whose overhead may be lower when compared to their sales volume.

[Astro]

I like my Gibson and I am glad they are still in the game. Their reputation has had its ups and downs over the years like any major instrument manufacturer. But in recent history, they have been turning out good mandolins at fairly competitive prices.

I think its pretty clear that they are not interested in providing basic or even advanced luthier services. They need the higher per unit profit margins of selling new instruments in order to keep the doors open and make payroll. Personally I think it would be a smart move for them to provide easier access to competitively priced luthier services for their mandolins. Even if they just broke even doing so, it would really bolster their reputation and increase their sales demand. But its tough providing intangibles like that at the corporate level.

[multidon]

In stark contrast to Gibson, I encourage anyone interested to check out the Repair page on Weber's site.

Some highlights: they state that they can do "any repair", that your instrument will "look like new" when they are finished, that the charge "reasonable rates" and that they "love to get them back and give them a little TLC."

I had an opportunity to put this to the test a couple years ago. My Bitterroot A had a wing crack that was glued by a local luthier. A sturdy repair but quite visible. I was intrigued by the "it will look like new" line. I also always wished my headstock had an inlay rather than a decal. I sent it to the, they evaluated it and told me the only way to make the repair truly invisible was a body refinish. I gave the go ahead for the work and communication was great during the process. I got weekly progress reports the entire time. They were great. Five weeks later I got it back. All that work, the refinish plus the inlay work, was only just over 400 dollars. I had to eat shipping both ways, but one of the best decisions I ever made.

I share this story to show that Bruce Weber looks at the repair aspect of the business quite differently from Gibson. But we already knew that, didn't we?

[Tobin]

2. The retailer commonly pays the distributor about 50% of the "suggested retail" or "list" price for a musical instrument. What he/she then does to discount the selling price, is up to the dealer. If the dealer pays $500 for an instrument with a $1000 list price, he/she can offer "40% off list," sell it for $600, and still make a 20% profit. That may or may not be enough to keep the store open, but you'll find (or used to find) discounts in that range from mail-order and on-line sellers, whose overhead may be lower when compared to their sales volume.

I could be wrong, but I think Gibson has a strict policy that all dealers must charge the same retail price to consumers. Anyone know for sure?