Montana Gibson Mandolin Specifications

[Bernie Daniel]

As an aside, one of my Facebook friends is reporting that the high end Brick n' Mortar stores and pawn shops are telling folks no interest in taking mandolins that you'd like to sell them, unless they're a Gibson or Gilchrist...The Gibson name is a wise investment!

Can you imagine taking a high-end Gibson or a Gilchrist to a pawn shop? Yikes! But wouldn't it be great to have a "fly on the wall" in that shop who happens to know your cell phone number?

[lenf12]

What a beauty! Blonde before blonde was cool?

Hi Bernie,

There was a time when blonde was not cool???

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Bernie Daniel]

Hi Bernie,

There was a time when blonde was not cool??? Len B. Clearwater, FL

Perhaps only for F-5 mandolins and rap music?

[Graham McDonald]

One of the big questions I have always had about this whole era is why did Gibson buy Flatiron in the first place? By 1978, Gibson had made huge strides, with Roger Siminoff's help, back to building great mandolins again. The F-5L was a pretty good mandolin after all.

From what I can tell, by 1986 when Gibson was bought by its current management, they had almost no mandolin building expertise. When the Kalamazoo factory was finally shut in 1983, (and had been winding back for a couple of years) none of the mandolin builders wanted to move to Nashville. The jigs and fixtures went, but not the people. That was also in the final years of the Norlin management and the business was going broke.

By 1984 Flatiron was making A5 mandolins and Steve Carson had worked out a production methodology. One source I found suggests that Carlson approached Juszkiewicz about a sale and it suited both parties for Gibson to acquire Flatiron. It gave Gibson an already established team of builders, albeit in Montana and for Carlson an opportunity to expand what he did.

Cheers.

[Bernie Daniel]

From what I can tell, by 1986 when Gibson was bought by its current management, they had almost no mandolin building expertise. When the Kalamazoo factory was finally shut in 1983, (and had been winding back for a couple of years) none of the mandolin builders wanted to move to Nashville. The jigs and fixtures went, but not the people. That was also in the final years of the Norlin management and the business was going broke.

By 1984 Flatiron was making A5 mandolins and Steve Carson had worked out a production methodology. One source I found suggests that Carlson approached Juszkiewicz about a sale and it suited both parties for Gibson to acquire Flatiron. It gave Gibson an already established team of builders, albeit in Montana and for Carlson an opportunity to expand what he did.

Cheers.

Hi Graham,

No I can't agree completely with that first paragraph. In 1978, following several years of Roger Siminoff's assistance to the Kalamazoo factory Gibson released the F-5L -- with great fanfare. The F-5L was a very good mandolin indeed and when they become available they change hands for $3,500 - 4,500 today. So Gibson was capable of making very good mandolins in the early 1980's. The part about the luthiers not wanting to leave Michigan I had heard also. But they could have hired other good luthiers to build off the F-5L plans from the Tennessee area surely?

Like you note the cost factor might have been at play? Maybe that is the biggest reason. That is maybe they could not gear up to make a cost competitive mandolin at Nashville in that time frame? I think your second paragraph is more or less the way I heard the story except that maybe Charlie Derringer was the go between? Someone here on the Cafe happens to have been in the Nashville bar where the deal went down and related some of the details as I recall.

[Graham McDonald]

I can only wonder where Gibson in Nashville might have found several experienced F-5 mandolin builders in 1983. I suspect there not people available in Nashville with those skills at that time. When Roger S convinced Gibson management in 1977 to let him build the first F-5L, there were only three mandolin makers at the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo. That number was doubled over the next few years, but I don't think any of them moved to Nashville. The impression I got from Richard Doan (one of the three who were there in 1977) when I met him a few years back was that it took a while to work up to carving soundboards/back and doing the assembly work on a mandolin. He had started there in 1963 and spent the first five years in the repair dept. When he left in 1981 he went to work in a totally different industry, not wood or machining related at all. A bit of Bill Monroe trivia is that Richard was the Gibson craftsman who repaired the broken off headstock scroll on Monroe's mandolin in 1981. Walter Carter's book on Gibson has lots of useful information on Gibson around that time, though mandolins barely get a mention in that period.

Cheers

[Bernie Daniel]

I can only wonder where Gibson in Nashville might have found several experienced F-5 mandolin builders in 1983. I suspect there not people available in Nashville with those skills at that time. When Roger S convinced Gibson management in 1977 to let him build the first F-5L, there were only three mandolin makers at the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo. That number was doubled over the next few years, but I don't think any of them moved to Nashville. The impression I got from Richard Doan (one of the three who were there in 1977) when I met him a few years back was that it took a while to work up to carving soundboards/back and doing the assembly work on a mandolin. He had started there in 1963 and spent the first five years in the repair dept. When he left in 1981 he went to work in a totally different industry, not wood or machining related at all. A bit of Bill Monroe trivia is that Richard was the Gibson craftsman who repaired the broken off headstock scroll on Monroe's mandolin in 1981. Walter Carter's book on Gibson has lots of useful information on Gibson around that time, though mandolins barely get a mention in that period. Cheers

I'm not sure about the exact dates but weren't guys like Gilchrist and Givens building mandolins at Nashville store/shop was then called GTR about that time --or was that later on?

Interesting story about Richard Doan -- but I am thinking that is the way all crafts were in bygone days you started at one place, entry level and worked you way up? Everyhing was on the job training?

I do have a table copy of Carter's book it is a remarkable effort and every time I look at it I learn something new. It's about time I page through it again!

To bring this back to the OP's point, we need a book like that one Carter wrote that documents the names and faces of the people, the places, the buildings and shops, and the mandolins that happened in the Gibson/Flatiron/Weber/Carlson/Derrington/Vest/Siminoff and all the others involved in this period of mandolin history!

[Graham McDonald]

I'm not sure about the exact dates but weren't guys like Gilchrist and Givens building mandolins at Nashville store/shop was then called GTR about that time --or was that later on?

Interesting story about Richard Doan -- but I am thinking that is the way all crafts were in bygone days you started at one place, entry level and worked you way up? Everyhing was on the job training?

I do have a table copy of Carter's book it is a remarkable effort and every time I look at it I learn something new. It's about time I page through it again!

To bring this back to the OP's point, we need a book like that one Carter wrote that documents the names and faces of the people, the places, the buildings and shops, and the mandolins that happened in the Gibson/Flatiron/Weber/Carlson/Derrington/Vest/Siminoff and all the others involved in this period of mandolin history!

That is what I have working on for the past few years. The current chapter I writing is on that very topic, and I am trying to pull together most of those elements. Givens worked for GTR (or at least in that circle) in the early 70s and that shop became Gruhn's store. Gilchrist was there for a year around 1980 before going out on his own. I just don't think there were many mandolin builders around at that time who could set up a production line for Gibson. I would be delighted to be proved incorrect.
Charlie Derrington started at Gibson around 1984 in the repair dept, which was where he was working when he did the big restoration on Monroe's mandolin a couple of years later. He left after a few years to set up his own repair business before returning to Gibson a decade later after the Montana period.

cheers

[Bernie Daniel]

That is what I have working on for the past few years. The current chapter I writing is on that very topic, and I am trying to pull together most of those elements. Givens worked for GTR (or at least in that circle) in the early 70s and that shop became Gruhn's store. Gilchrist was there for a year around 1980 before going out on his own. I just don't think there were many mandolin builders around at that time who could set up a production line for Gibson. I would be delighted to be proved incorrect.
Charlie Derrington started at Gibson around 1984 in the repair dept, which was where he was working when he did the big restoration on Monroe's mandolin a couple of years later. He left after a few years to set up his own repair business before returning to Gibson a decade later after the Montana period.

cheers

Glad you are doing that! I'll buy your book! When did Jim Triggs come on to the scene there?

[DataNick]

Thanks Guys!

Here's what we have so far for the F5L "Fern"

Top: Sitka Spruce
Sides/Back: Maple
Neck: Maple
Neck Joint: Tenon-Mortise with bolt
Headblock/Tailblock: Mahagony
Nut: Mother of Pearl (MOP)
Fingerboard: Ebony and flat, with MOP position dots and elevated extension
Bridge: Two piece ebony
Binding: white-black-white grained ivoroid.
Tuners: Schaller with their original large diameter bushings, gold-plaited
with pearloid buttons
Headstock Inlay:"The Gibson" inlay seemed somewhat large, and the script (a late '20s open style as on recent Ferns) not an accurate copy of older scripts
Finish: Cremona style lacquer
Endpin: Ebony
Bracing: parallel
Tuned sound chambers
Tailpiece: 20's style gold plaited


If the above is correct then the specs really did not change much from the original F5L specs that Roger Siminoff documents.

Keep the posts coming...!

Thread Bump:

The last statement I made above re: specs is incorrect! Though we have pretty much nailed down the X&Os of what the characteristics of the "Montana" build mandolins were, by way of the F5L, as far as the specs used to "construct" these mandolins, they were not like the original F5L specs or like Gibson "Loar" specs as defined later by Charlie Derrington.

In effect, the myriad of differences in spec such as differences in interpretation of the neck profiles, soundboard and backboard graduations and contours, tuning methodology, neck joint, bridge angle, etc were completely different than "Gibson" spec and in fact were decidedly "Flatiron" in spec, so that the result was Flatiron mandolins produced with some being "dressed up" by way of inlay, finishing and appointment changes as Gibsons.

Let's not over react emotionally to this as this is the exact opposite of what Charlie D. did later in 97'-99'. After the retool in Nashville, decidedly Gibson "Loar" specs were implemented and Gibson mandolins were produced with some being "dressed up" as Flatirons.

In conclusion based on all the threads I've read, personal testimony documented in interviews, etc. Montana Gibsons in specification were Flatiron mandolins, just as Nashville Flatirons in specification were Gibson mandolins. I'm not saying one is better than the other; as I own and love my Montana Gibson 94' F5L, but for accuracy purposes, unless corrected by the principles involved, this appears to be the true nature of the mandolin builds.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

"Late '20s open style" head stock inlay might not be quite correct. The F5 "open style" script inlay first appeared in July 1923, check the "o"-opening on the Loars and later F5s. In '29 they went back to the look prior to '22, when the "o"-opening was below the "n"-connection, possibly to use up some left-over pre-'22 inlays. BTW many Loars, some (all?) '22s and some post '24s have the closed pattern. The F5L pattern is certainly not an exact copy of anything.

1921:

1923:

1929:

1994:

[DataNick]

Thread Bump:

The last statement I made above re: specs is incorrect! Though we have pretty much nailed down the X&Os of what the characteristics of the "Montana" build mandolins were, by way of the F5L, as far as the specs used to "construct" these mandolins, they were not like the original F5L specs or like Gibson "Loar" specs as defined later by Charlie Derrington.

In effect, the myriad of differences in spec such as differences in interpretation of the neck profiles, soundboard and backboard graduations and contours, tuning methodology, neck joint, bridge angle, etc were completely different than "Gibson" spec and in fact were decidedly "Flatiron" in spec, so that the result was Flatiron mandolins produced with some being "dressed up" by way of inlay, finishing and appointment changes as Gibsons.

Let's not over react emotionally to this as this is the exact opposite of what Charlie D. did later in 97'-99'. After the retool in Nashville, decidedly Gibson "Loar" specs were implemented and Gibson mandolins were produced with some being "dressed up" as Flatirons.

In conclusion based on all the threads I've read, personal testimony documented in interviews, etc. Montana Gibsons in specification were Flatiron mandolins, just as Nashville Flatirons in specification were Gibson mandolins. I'm not saying one is better than the other; as I own and love my Montana Gibson 94' F5L, but for accuracy purposes, unless corrected by the principles involved, this appears to be the true nature of the mandolin builds.

Thread Bump again!

OK...this should be for the last time: I WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

After meeting Mr. Bruce Weber at NAMM last week, he obliged me by clarifying this whole situation. From the man himself who was head luthier there in Bozeman for a substantial amount of time this is what he says was the case:

Gibson mandolins were built to "Gibson" spec as detailed by Jim Triggs who personally went up to Bozeman and instructed the staff there. Mr. Weber also said the carving graduations were completely different between Gibson mandolins and Flatiron mandolins produced at that time in that facility. He also said he was glad that they were, because he felt they should be separate/different.

So according to Mr. Weber (no better reference than him) Montana Gibsons were produced per "Gibson" spec and were completely different from Flatiron mandolins. Sorry for the confusion on my part, but it looks like the complete picture fot this period of Gibson mandolin production has now been qualified by the principles involved.

As to the differences between Bozeman Gibsons in their carving graduations, neck profile, angle, etc. as compared to the Gibson F5L specs that Roger Siminoff championed and produced at Gibson from 1978-81, I would say that it probably has to do more with spec changes that Jim Triggs and/or Charlie Derrington had made by 1988 when the Flatiron guys were then instructed by Jim Triggs on the specs for Gibsons.

Bruce Weber, myself, and mando buddy Lou S. at the Weber display at NAMM

[DataNick]

Thread Bump again!

OK...this should be for the last time: I WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

After meeting Mr. Bruce Weber at NAMM last week, he obliged me by clarifying this whole situation. From the man himself who was head luthier there in Bozeman for a substantial amount of time this is what he says was the case:

Gibson mandolins were built to "Gibson" spec as detailed by Jim Triggs who personally went up to Bozeman and instructed the staff there. Mr. Weber also said the carving graduations were completely different between Gibson mandolins and Flatiron mandolins produced at that time in that facility. He also said he was glad that they were, because he felt they should be separate/different.

So according to Mr. Weber (no better reference than him) Montana Gibsons were produced per "Gibson" spec and were completely different from Flatiron mandolins. Sorry for the confusion on my part, but it looks like the complete picture fot this period of Gibson mandolin production has now been qualified by the principles involved.

As to the differences between Bozeman Gibsons in their carving graduations, neck profile, angle, etc. as compared to the Gibson F5L specs that Roger Siminoff championed and produced at Gibson from 1978-81, I would say that it probably has to do more with spec changes that Jim Triggs and/or Charlie Derrington had made by 1988 when the Flatiron guys were then instructed by Jim Triggs on the specs for Gibsons.

Bruce Weber, myself, and mando buddy Lou S. at the Weber display at NAMM

Thread Bump #3:

I just got off the phone a little while ago with Steve Carlson and he graciously offered some further clarification on this whole period of Gibson mandolin production, confirming everything that Bruce Weber told me in January with the following additional details:

1. When Gibson acquired Flatiron, Jim Triggs was producing about one F5L per month so naturally the Flatiron option for that reason and others made a lot of sense. Jim Triggs did "inservice" the luthiers at Flatiron on making a Gibson mandolin and low and behold, Charlie Derrington's Loar was used as the main prototype for measurements, etc. Roger Siminoff's F5L specs had been somewhat incorporated into what Triggs/Derrington were doing but as far as Steve Carlson is concerned, they basically "started over" with the F5L, again based on Triggs specs and Derrington's Loar. From there a production methodology was worked out, etc.

2. As an aside, re: the Flatiron acquisition, Steve said that at NAMM 87' the new Gibson ownership team (Henry J.) was present and that several music instrument industry folks were acting in an advisory capacity to Henry (George Gruhn, etc.). Among these advisors was Stan Jay of Mandolin Brothers. Gibson had initiated litigation against Flatiron in 1986 before the new owners bought the company. Steve said that he mentioned to Stan Jay that "I could build all the Gibson mandolins that Henry wants and it would be cheaper than suing me". Steve said that Stan Jay literally made a bee-line for Henry J. and within 3 months Charlie Derrington called him on the phone saying that Henry would like him to come to Nashville....and the rest as they say is history!

Thank You Steve for allowing me to share this on the cafe...and after talking on the phone for some good 20 minutes, I can say that Steve Carlson is not only a very nice man, and in his own way a visionary, but that we also both seem to share a fascination over historical details as it pertains at least to mandolins!

[Mandoplumb]

Why did Gibson buy Flatiron? Why did they buy Epiphone? Why did they buy Dobro? Anyone see a pattern here?

[DataNick]

Why did Gibson buy Flatiron? Why did they buy Epiphone? Why did they buy Dobro? Anyone see a pattern here?

They bought Flatiron per reasons illuminated above and it just made sense! Why not go from one guy producing one F5L a month with an incredible backlog, demand and losing sales to Flatiron; when you can buy Flatiron and let them pump out 2-3 F5Ls a week...and own (get revenue) from their Flatiron sales as well without having to tool a facility or train new luthiers.

I don't know about the other companies...

[Bernie Daniel]

They bought Flatiron per reasons illuminated above and it just made sense! Why not go from one guy producing one F5L a month with an incredible backlog, demand and losing sales to Flatiron; when you can buy Flatiron and let them pump out 2-3 F5Ls a week...and own (get revenue) from their Flatiron sales as well without having to tool a facility or train new luthiers.

I don't know about the other companies...

Exactomundo Nick! Nice bit of historical detective work there too -- so much for the idea that Gibsons and Flatirons were the same mandolin with different head stocks.

IMO the only mistake Gibson made was to subsequently fritter away the cache of the "Flatiron" name by sticking it on PacRim imports.....

Be interesting to hear Steve Carlson's thoughts on that move -- or maybe not!

[DataNick]

Exactomundo Nick! Nice bit of historical detective work there too -- so much for the idea that Gibsons and Flatirons were the same mandolin with different head stocks.

IMO the only mistake Gibson made was to subsequently fritter away the cache of the "Flatiron" name by sticking it on PacRim imports.....

Be interesting to hear Steve Carlson's thoughts on that move -- or maybe not!

Ya know Bernie, Gibson is not making any 'A' models currently(no A9/A5G) why not bring to market a Flatiron Performer A model that is basically the 'A' model version of the current F9. It would be different from an A9 because it would have the top binding scheme, etc. all the while with a satin finish, it would be different from the previous Flatiron A model iterations. Couldn't possibly take longer to carve than an F model; makes sense to me and you'd have that entry model Gibson that people could afford, competively price it to a Collings MT satin finish or Pava satin finish model...dhmando are you listening out there?...LOL!

[Mandoplumb]

Flatiron is now a PAC rim as is epi no longer competition for Gibson, just a low cost instrument in the Gibson family.

[Nick Gellie]

DataNick,

Collings, Pava (Ellis), and Northfield have cornered the A5 mid-high end market. it would not make sense for Gibson to compete against these guys as the latter have worked out how to build a top-class A5 mandolins and have years of experience and know-how behind them. One could say that the Collings MT has replaced the Flatiron Performer or Artist A mandolins.

[Bernie Daniel]

Ya know Bernie, Gibson is not making any 'A' models currently(no A9/A5G) why not bring to market a Flatiron Performer A model that is basically the 'A' model version of the current F9. It would be different from an A9 because it would have the top binding scheme, etc. all the while with a satin finish, it would be different from the previous Flatiron A model iterations. Couldn't possibly take longer to carve than an F model; makes sense to me and you'd have that entry model Gibson that people could afford, competively price it to a Collings MT satin finish or Pava satin finish model...dhmando are you listening out there?...LOL!

Good thoughts Nick! I would also love to see the Flatiron name get disentangled from the import-bargin association -- but we might need a time machine for that. It is hard to put ketchup back in the bottle.

[fatt-dad]

Please stop calling it a bolted neck!! It's a mortise and tenon joint. The "bolt" is a lag screw that acts as an internal clamp while the glue sets. Remove the screw and the joint remains tight. It is a glued joint after all!

Carry on. . .

f-d

[DataNick]

ipapa gordo,

Chill Brotha! I never said "bolted neck"...check my previous posts descriptions:"tenon-mortise with bolt".....in fact we havent' even referenced neck joints in this thread for ages..where'd that outburst come from Brotha?

[fatt-dad]

I'm actually chilling at the beach.

f-d

[DataNick]

Now that your "chill" where did the "bolted neck" rant come from? Not any description I made in this thread...

[DataNick]

Now that your "chill" where did the "bolted neck" rant come from? Not any description I made in this thread...

Never mind I found it...post#2 by Mr. Henry Eagle: certainly a very learned chap re: Gibson mandolins...I knew what he meant but didn't feel "correction" was necessary....dude that was over a year ago, Sep 2014.....Oh well, enjoy the beach!