Solo Acoustic Sound: Amp vs. PA

[mandroid]

.. except for their infamous Behringer "reliability"... luckily yours was adequate..

[Jim]

I have 2 Behringer Acoustic amps one 15 watt and one 45 watt as well as a Behringer rack mount compressor limiter and a recently aquired DI/pre-amp. Both of the acoustic amps have gone out to coffee shops, Bars, Farmers markets and practices for 9 and 7 years respectively with no problems. I treat them a little more gently than I did my Peavey and Music Man amps in my Rock & Roll years but I have had no reliability problems.

[Tim2723]

I only posted that Behringer as an example for Ed. I didn't want to de-rail the topic though. Some are good, some are bad, swim at your own risk, yadda yadda. Peavey has a nice four-channel PA head as well as a lot of others. Choose your weapon. A nice little powered head sitting next to you is a handy thing when you don't want to lug around a monster.

[Ed Goist]

...snip... If you're going out solo with a couple of mics, why not just add a small powered mixer (200 watts, four channels) to your 10" speakers from teh other set up?...snip...

Hi Tim; those 10" Peavey PR10 speakers are fantastic, but I am bound and determined to make this project as stripped-down as possible, especially to begin with. Hence, my goal is to have a stand alone, easy to carry, easy set-up sound system (either a personal PA like this one, or a decent two channel acoustic amp like the Carvin I asked about above).

Now that I think about it, I'm sure my strong commitment to a "the less gear the better" stance with this project is a reaction to the huge amount of gear that's transported and set-up with my five-piece classic rock cover band. It's ridiculous...our set-up before a gig looks like the Rolling Stones getting ready to go on tour (only without the roadies! ). I want this to be very much the opposite of that.

[Tim2723]

I remember talking about that neat little Kustom unit a while back. I still think that's a pretty handy solution. Going back over all you've said here, that sounds like a real possibility, especially for the money. As long as you aren't counting on phantom powered condenser mics, that's a sweet looking little piece of kit. It's not a SoloAmp, but it's not $1000 either.

[foldedpath]

Someone should bring this topic up, so I guess that's me. What's your backup plan if the gear dies on the gig? For me, it breaks down like this:

1) Minimalist gigs, indoors or outdoors with a very quiet audience (think outdoor wedding ceremony, small crowd), where the backup is to ditch amplification and just play acoustically. That can work, but it's very situation dependent.

2) Gigs where there *is* no gig if the gear fails. Larger, or just noisier gigs like a bar, or outdoors where you need to reach a crowd more than a few feet away. That's where I want a backup. With two powered speakers that have built-in mixers like the K10's, I'm covered. If my compact mixer dies, I carry SM-57's where my guitar partner and I can plug direct into the speakers. If one speaker dies, the other one is extremely not likely not to die at the same time, unless the power just goes out at the gig. And I ain't responsible for that. Even with all this, I still usually throw a vintage Mackie 1202 mixer in the car, just in case.

I'm paranoid that way. I used to work as an advertising photographer, and you just never went out on a job without making sure that you had two of everything loaded in the truck, just in case. Paying clients don't forgive non-performance due to gear failure, because you're supposed to take care of that eventuality.

There is an additional factor here, involving whether you're getting paid for the gig, and how much, but I treat the few benefit gigs I've done the same way as paying gigs. It's just more important, reputation-wise, not to have your gear fail with no backup plan at a gig where you want recurring employment from the client, the venue, or just general word-of-mouth.

So Ed, if you're going out there with just an acoustic amp, have another cheap one in the car.

[almeriastrings]

Another thing to look at if you want an "all in one" very portable solution is the Yamaha Stagepas range. These are good sounding systems and very lightweight (they use Class D amplifiers). The 250M is excellent as a simple guitar/vocal system.

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global...m/features.jsp

Yamaha build quality stuff. The Stagepas systems have a removable mixer/amp section in the speaker. This can be located by the performer if required.

Strengths: Very well made and reliable, lightweight, compact, sound very good. Articulate and accurate speaker.
Weaknesses: Underpowered compared to say, a K10. Mixer's EQ is limited. Reverb is kind of average. No +48v on some models. No high impedance input for direct input of piezo transducers.

[Ed Goist]

Someone should bring this topic up, so I guess that's me. What's your backup plan if the gear dies on the gig? ...snip...

I'm thinking that the vast majority of my gigs (especially early on) will be of the "Minimalist" type you describe. For these gigs, I'm thinking the sound system will be used more to balance the sound than actually amplify it. So, if the system fails under these circumstances, I'd just go straight acoustic, and urge everyone to "come on up close".

So Ed, if you're going out there with just an acoustic amp, have another cheap one in the car.

Great point. For gigs where I'm sure I'll want a possible back-up, I'll be sure to throw my trusty Roland CUBE-40XL into the trunk. This amp is also on my "Most Valuable Gear" list, and I'd have no problem playing through a single proximity Heil PR-20-UT mic through an in-line Transformer and into the CUBE. Heck, come to think of it, this would most likely end-up sounding better than whatever permanent system I come up with!

[Eric C.]

I would go with a 10" powered speaker_, 2 channel mixer and a speaker stand. Can always add additional speaker and monitor if you need it down the road.

[almeriastrings]

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that all systems, without exception, represent a balance of compromises.

You can get the ultimate, high power "bells and whistles" system - but will pay a penalty somewhere down the line, be it in cost, weight, bulk or complexity. If you want super-portability, you are going to find a few things missing. Might be power. Might be EQ options, numbers of inputs.... so, the user has to decide where to draw the line and where - for their specific situation - a balance can be arrived at that they can live and work with. That is going to be somewhat different for everyone. Hence, there is no universally 'correct' answer to this question.

Some redundancy and fall-back is absolutely essential for important gigs. Separate powered speaker systems win hands down here as (like Foldedpath says) the chances of two going into complete failure simultaneously is incredibly remote. Provided they are of decent power/coverage, you should be fine with one, even if the worst should happen.

Fortunately, modern high quality equipment is generally very reliable. With cheaper stuff, well... you pays your money and you takes your chances! You may be fine. Maybe not. I have seen a fair few failures with lower-end audio stuff. Jack sockets making bad contact, noisy pots, channels going dead, over-heating, mysterious hums, buzzes and such-like. Not all show-stoppers, but certainly inconvenient.

Conversely, had excellent, consistent performance and reliability from A&H, Soundcraft, Fishman, Midas, QSC, Yamaha, RCF and others.

The mixer is one thing, that if it fails, can be a real issue. My main current mixer is the Line 6 M20D - a very compact mass of high technology. So far, no problems, but I make sure I toss my little Soundcraft EFX8 in the trunk, just in case.....

[Ed Goist]

Has anyone owned or used the Kustom Profile 200 Portable PA System?

Nice price, and I've played through some Kustom floor wedges that sounded quite good. If this is decent it's a smoking deal!

[oldwave]

Not really impressed withe the quality of Kustom speakers, but they were low end monitors. I expect it would sound adequate for a solo act though.

[Tim2723]

You know Ed, for a lousy $99 bucks you could have two of those Kustom mini PAs on hand. They even daisy chain together for when you need a little more boost. I'm playing some Sundays at the local retirement/convalescent center and, like you, just need something to balance out the acoustic sounds. Mostly so I don't over-sing my voice keeping up with the instruments. I have a bunch of amps, but they are all a little too big for that purpose. I might just get one of those little Kustoms if you're the guinea pig for it.

[Tim2723]

Has anyone owned or used the Kustom Profile 200 Portable PA System?

Nice price, and I've played through some Kustom floor wedges that sounded quite good. If this is decent it's a smoking deal!

Kustom is a company that keeps producing the old tried-and-true technology. They aren't the most sophisticated, but you can pretty much hit them with a hammer and they still work. We're getting spoiled with all the fancy new tech out there.

Another thing to bear in mind is will this gig pay enough to justify a Fishman, Bose, or K10s? Like FP said, you gets what you pays for, but then again, you gotta get paid. Everything is about balancing risks with returns. But you know me, I'm the phegmatic pragmatist of the group.

If you go with the Kustom 200, are you any better off than using the Peavey 10s you already have? If you start carrying a three-piece PA, tripods, mic stands, etc, you're still making a lot of trips to the car, and that's more important to me than size or weight. It's the trips that kill me.

[Ed Goist]

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It has been hugely helpful to me.

Based largely on the desire to have just one relatively light piece of gear to haul, I've decided to go with a 2-channel acoustic combo amp.

Whenever possible, I'll be micing my instrument as well as my vocals, and will therefore run two mics into the amp (with a microphone input impedance transformer used on the mic going into the instrument input).

I'd like to stick to a budget of about $300, and have narrowed my choices down to either the Fender Acoustasonic 90 (90W - 1X8"+tweeter - 18#), or the Fishman Loudbox Mini PRO-LBX-500 (60W - 1X6.5" - 20#). I've played through both of these amps at my local GC and was impressed by both. I think the "true acoustic" sound of the Fishman is a little better than the Fender, but that the effects and warmth of the Fender are better than those of the Fishman. I'd say either could do the job for me well, and both are nice and light.

Has anyone here owned both of these amps? Any thoughts on which would be a better choice for my set-up?

I'd like to get this system in place and begin practicing/rehearsing through it daily. We failed to do enough of that with my old acoustic ensemble, and we suffered on stage for that mistake. (Live and learn )

Thanks again everyone.

[Ed Goist]

Ed, I haven't heard that Carvin acoustic amp, but judging by the specs and photos, I can see some good things and some not-so-good....snip...The main thing I don't like is the max input impedance rating of 500K Ohms. That's on the low side, for passive pickups (if that's what you're using). You might need a DI or preamp/DI like the LR Baggs PADI to get the best results with a passive pickup, especially if you're on a long cable run to the amp. I don't know why anyone these days would market an "acoustic amp" without a 1 MegOhm or better input impedance.

Reviving this thread to relay an interesting reply I got from Carvin regarding foldedpath's concern about the Carvin's low input impedance mentioned above, and also get opinions on my final acoustic amp candidates. (BTW, I've been practicing/rehearsing through a Behringer ACX450 for the time being...Not bad, but not truly stage-worthy either).

Here's an e-mail exchange I recently had with Carvin's sales & customer service department (they were very quick to respond, BTW, and I'm not even a customer yet):

Me:
I am a solo acoustic performer in the market for a multi-channel acoustic amp, and I am considering your AG line of amps. However, I am concerned about the relatively low input impedance of these amps. I have passive pickup systems on all my acoustic instruments, and I'm concerned that even the high impedance setting on these amps (500K ohms) may be too low to get the optimum performance from the pickups without needing to use a preamp. Since these amps are acoustic amps why do you use such low input impedance? Will I be able to get optimum performance from my passive pickup instruments without a preamp through these amps?

Carvin:
Unless you have a guitar or upright bass with really old passive piezo technology, 10-12+ years, we have found the 500K input impedance gave the best noise to signal performance.

So, I've narrowed my list of possible "permanent" amps down to The Fishman Loudbox Artist, the Carvin AG200, and the Carvin AG300. I'm now leaning toward the Carvin AG300 because it has a 3-way driver system with a 12" woofer. I'm thinking this would provide nice volume reach and a better sonic footprint than the 6.5" speakers in the other amps. Thoughts?

[foldedpath]

Carvin:
Unless you have a guitar or upright bass with really old passive piezo technology, 10-12+ years, we have found the 500K input impedance gave the best noise to signal performance.

This is just my personal opinion, so with that out of the way...

I think that's a bull excrement response from Carvin's marketing department, to cover the fact that their "acoustic" amp isn't designed to work with a wide range of passive pickups. Especially those for mandolins, where there is no room for an internal battery and preamp.

Many, not all, of the "acoustic amps" out there now, are basically designed for the modern crop of acoustic guitars being sold with either factory or aftermarket pickups with internal preamps and batteries to power them. Buying an "acoustic amp" means you're buying a guitar amp (one reason I use mini PA systems instead). Mandolins are different.... we have to be more careful what we're plugging into, because pickups are always passive.

Using a DI ahead of the amp will solve the impedance matching issue if the amp isn't really designed for passive pickups, but you need to know that's required, which some of this marketing B.S. doesn't tell you.

Or you could just bypass all this nonsense and do what I do. Use a clip-on mini condenser mic, or an external condenser mic. Much better for getting the actual tone of your mandolin out into the room. But I've been preaching that for years...

[almeriastrings]

Unless you have a guitar or upright bass with really old passive piezo technology, 10-12+ years, we have found the 500K input impedance gave the best noise to signal performance.

Thoughts?

My main thought is that I am very unimpressed by this kind of response. As Foldedpath says, this is hogwash. Misleading at best. The laws of physics have not changed since 10-12 years ago, neither have the requirements of piezo transducers.

It does not inspire confidence in the company, frankly. Maybe they simply had someone in customer service who lacked the technical knowledge required, but the reply given is not what you hope for.

I actually don't think you need to look for bulky 3-way units with a 12" LF driver to do what you want. Driver unit size is no indication of performance. You can use multiple smaller drivers, ultra-long-throw drivers, active crossovers, bi-amping ,enclosure design and many other techniques to get a very good, very full response from all kinds of configurations. A really good, active 10" design (or a line array type design) would easily handle what you are looking for. If you do it right, you can even build sub-woofers with 6" drivers - so again, larger does not necessarily = better. As for coverage (dispersion) you can get tremendously good performance from, say, the multiple 4" drivers in the SA220's... much better than you'd get from a 3-way Carvin type enclosure.

So, while it may be a decent enough "all in one" (I have never tried one so can't comment on real-world performance), the design and specs would have me looking elsewhere. I have used the Fishman Loudbox range in various settings, and always felt they offered really solid performance and good value.

[Barry Wilson]

I have been using a couple Yorkville mains on stands 10" speaker and horn with a seperate power amp (ART) in a rack. the rack holds everything and serves as a table. Solo I use 8 channels though and a ton of crap LOL

I love Yorkville gear...ART is Yorkville as well

[UsuallyPickin]

How much gear do you want to drag around, how large a venue will you be playing in and how loud do you want to be? Small PA's 100w and up are available with four or more channels. Fender , Kustom, Fishman Bose all make good solid small PA's. Small amps starting at about 20w are available with two channels. Fishman has a series of amps entitled Loudbox starting at 60w and two channels which get very good reviews. Small six channel mixers into a powered speaker are an option and a good one because adding wattage involves just adding another powered speaker. A good quality powered speaker JBL, QSC Mackie are all good for this type usage . Behringer makes quality inexpensive mixers that would be fine in this usage. But a dolly ..carry extra cables ... R/

[John Adrihan]

I hve not played through the Fender but I do own the Fishman Mini and love it. The only other one that I have played through was the Marshall amp. I do not remember what model it is but it is 50 amps.