pick direction - feeling frustrated

[emzech]

It was recently pointed out to me that on a song I thought I was playing pretty well I was actually getting my pick direction reversed at certain points. This usually resulted from hitting two up strokes in a row or two down strokes in a row and then being "upside down" as-it-were for the rest of that phrase.

I have slowed down the tempo of the song tremendously but it is still hard to avoid getting into this "upside-down" pattern.

What's worse (way worse imo) is that I have realized I do this on many (nearly ALL) songs that I play! It has got me feeling like even songs I thought I played extremely well-- songs that I have played for years and were my go-to songs when I needed to play good-- I now have to entirely re-learn. It's like I am just starting all over again. It has me down.

So how do I correct this? Should I just accept that this is a hobby and ignore it and play for fun? Should I go back to square one and re-learn everything? Or just add a couple more mandolins to the classifieds?

[bigskygirl]

What kind of mandolins do you have.....I'm looking to upgrade....

Seriously, there is lots of discussion on pick direction. Generally down on the "one" and up on the "and" but really people do all kinds of things.

Try different ways and see what works for you.

[Jstring]

Wow, what "friend" felt the need to point that out + undermine your confidence? It's music; ignore the pick fascists and enjoy your mandolin! I wouldn't bother to re-learn those songs... Just focus on pick direction on future songs. It becomes automatic eventually... And some songs are best played with multiple downstrokes for emphasis at some parts... Or a cross-picking lick might go down-down-up... You get the picture...

[SincereCorgi]

Just relearn it. It won't be as bad as you think, but it will require concentration and diligence for a month or so. The benefits will be considerable, especially if you play bluegrass or old time styles with lots of rapid-fire eighth notes.

(Having said that, I know a lot of good rock and jazz guitar players who care nothing about alternate picking.)

[Jordan Ramsey]

My own personal experience.... proper pick direction (down on the strong beat, up on the weak beat) is one of the most important aspects of proficient mandolin playing. Do the work... It'll be tough, but the results will be dramatic. I went through the same thing when I was coming up. Self-taught for two years, I didn't even realize that I had a problem until my first real mando lesson. The six months that followed were some of the most frustrating of my life. I had to unlearn/relearn probably 15 to 20 fiddle tunes, slowed down to sometimes half (or more) of my original speed. I had to write in pick direction markings and repeat short phrases over and over and over again... on material that I thought I could play... It sucked, BUT, I toughed it out and came out the other end a MUCH better player. If you love the instrument and feel like you can deal with a little setback for a bigger payoff down the road, commit to doing the work and find a good teacher that can guide you through and keep you honest. Once you get over the hump and it starts to ingrain, you'll be surprised at how fast you improve. Proper alternating pick direction will work miracles for your speed, smoothness, timing, tone, etc. Good luck in your journey.

[jshane]

Should I just accept that this is a hobby and ignore it and play for fun?

You should accept that it is a hobby (at least it is for most of us), and you CERTAINLY should play for fun......

But pick direction is one of those things that really matters (or WILL matter, depending on where you are in the journey). I find that if I think of my hand as a metronome bar turned sideways, and move the hand in time, only hitting the string(s) for actual notes, my pick direction more or less takes care of itself, and the transition between picked individual notes, full strums, and double stops is easier, too.

[Tobin]

Jordan Ramsey gave you some very good advice. And I'm in full agreement: right-hand technique is usually what keeps people from being as good as they desire, and proper pick direction is the most important part of right-hand technique. If you know you have an issue, spend the time to fix it. It will indeed become automatic once you have focused on it long enough, and you'll realize that your playing takes off into new dimensions.

Yes, there are times when you'll want to intentionally deviate from the standard pick stroke directions, but you should be doing that with forethought, not accidentally.

You should thank your friend for pointing it out to you (hopefully he did so with tact). He may have saved you years of frustration. And even though you are suffering from a temporary setback in your confidence, you should be looking at it as a Eureka! moment.

[sgrexa]

"right-hand technique is usually what keeps people from being as good as they desire" - Amen to that! I don't know why it took me such a long time for this to finally sink in, but this is very true. If you watch a lot of the super good players closely, you will notice that they all have incredibly fast, consistently disciplined up / down pickstrokes. It is usually only one or two tricky notes that mix you up. Try to identify these spots, slow things down and play those phrases over and over until it becomes automatic and feels natural. It is a work in progress for me but there really is no getting around it if you want to get to the next level. Now for some fun, this camera angle shows a pretty good textbook example of proper right hand technique:



Just do what he does and have fun!

Sean

[emzech]

Thank you to all who answered. Thank you for the good advise and encouragement!

[sgrexa]

"they all have incredibly fast, consistently disciplined up / down pick strokes" DOH! that should read DOWN / UP

[Jstring]

Another important point - Pick direction is one half of good right hand technique technique...the other half is playing with the wrist instead of the whole right arm. Watch this video of Danny Roberts and you'll see both done expertly:

[Killian King]

I found this post by the late John Mcgann to be very inspirational. He found his technique was holding him back so he sought help to figure out how to correct the problem. While he was in the process of making adjustments he fell back into his previous habits when necessary.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ghlight=mcgann

Work on your pick direction but don't be afraid to play however you can when jamming (for the time being).

[Mandophyte]

I see that John's web is no longer there. Here's a copy of the document referred to.

[Gelsenbury]

As others have said before, pick direction can be important. It may not be obvious now, but further down the line when you want to speed up and/or insert more ornamentation, correct pick direction is an important basis.

But the best way to get used to pick direction will probably be to learn new tunes. Re-learning old materials is painful, as you rightly say, and the frustration may not be worthwhile just yet. Pay attention to pick direction with all the new material that you learn, and re-learn the old stuff only when you have (a) become more used to proper pick direction, which will make the process easier, and (b) reached a stage where re-learning will really help you make these tunes sound better.

[Ky Slim]

I understand your frustration. I have always played with strict alternate pick strokes and I actually learned more than a handful of jigs with straight alternate DUDUDU picking before learning that these are better played DUDDUD.

[bratsche]

Well, I play some Bach Gigues (which means "jigs"), and I've always done those with straight alternate pickstrokes. Key is to learn to be able to hit an upstroke just as convincingly as a downstroke whenever necessary. Shoot, there are some passages in Bach (not necessarily talking gigues now, but in general) where, due to speed and which strings I'm playing on, it occasionally helps a lot to reverse course altogether and play certain sections as UDUDUD - with strong upstrokes on all the beats and downstrokes on the after-beats. (Easier than it sounds, because the passages in question would be much more difficult to execute at the same speed doing it DUDUDU.)

Just curious, does anyone who plays Bach gigues use the DUDDUD (or DDUDDU) pattern?

bratsche

[JeffJones]

Just curious, does anyone who plays Bach gigues use the DUDDUD (or DDUDDU) pattern?

Not sure if the Sarabande Double from the First Violin Partita counts as a gigue. But I have been working on that one and I have been using DUDDUD as my base pattern. I don't do a very good job sticking to that pattern, you'll notice in the video below that I start out with the DUDDUD pattern but devolve into a loose DUDUDUDU pretty quickly. I do prefer the jig feel that the DUDDUD gives the piece when I do stick to the pattern. That is what I am working on with the piece currently.



I will also say that I generally use and preach the standard pick stroke theory that the OP is being encouraged to work towards. But as I work through some Bach pieces I am finding, as Bratsche mentions, sometimes I have to throw that theory out the window and just find something that works for a particular phrase.

[Toycona]

So, i'm in year 5 of my mandolin journey, and pick direction is a continuing area of focus. For me, my hands and ears are much better connected in many ways, especially when I get 'upside down' on my pick direction. I can now hear/feel when I get turned around pretty much within a note or two. My daily practice includes pick direction drills, so things are better. But here's what really cemented my understanding of the importance of the right hand...a music friend once told me that your left hand is your vocabulary and your right hand is your voice. Once I took that note to heart, I realized that having a big vocabulary is nice, but being able to phrase musical expressions with the right hand is really what tone is all about. I'm listening to Adam Steffey right now and am reminded of this - phrasing expression and tone are right hand attributes.

For me, the bottom line: Have fun, but do the work; have patience and know that it does take time...probably a lifetime.

[PhillipeTaylor]

Been tracking the conversation as a bystander...Good, helpful advice, all! Thanks!

[Marc Ferry]

From my experience, it's WAY easier to re-learn these songs than you think! After playing it correctly a few times, you'll get the feel for how it sounds played properly, and it'll become permanent. Just try re-learning a few of these songs... you'll see what I mean!

And also, don't get too bogged down in technique. The purpose of music is to bring enjoyment to the self and to others. And it looks like you're doing that! Yes, having good technique and pick direction does help you produce enjoyment, but fretting too much about it will have the opposite effect.

[Hemlock]

Just got the same discovery feedback from my teacher.... Crushing blow to beginner progress. Will be using metronome now at slow tempo to relearn all my songs and undo the problem spots. Seems to be when picking across different strings inadvertently ending up with DD OR UU to screw things up instead of DUDU. Explains a lot in the flow and the rhythm issues I've experienced. Gotta get it right! (Tinkering with Irish tunes also encouraging some trouble).

[Gelsenbury]

I find that breaking the tune down into phrases helps. If you try to play each phrase well, the pick direction will fall into place, and you'll memorise where you need a downstroke for emphasis.

[EdSherry]

Lots of beginners get into the "catch as catch can" habit, especially changing directions with each note played, rather than continuing the alternating pick motions even if no note is being sounded. It's a hard habit to break, but worth it. I played jigs for many years with straight alternating picking, but learned that they sounded better if I switched to DUD DUD.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I played jigs for many years with straight alternating picking, but learned that they sounded better if I switched to DUD DUD.

Holy cow yeah. Did the same thing, and I actually find jig picking is helpful for proper alternate picking because it makes you focus on the difference between downstrokes and up strokes.

[Tommy Berry]

As I slowly begin my journey into learning how to play my mandolin (and music understanding)...this thread has given me some reading material to help me next time I practice tonight...thank you OP!