Are gilchrists looseing their desire

[Rick Schmidlin]

I see that there are Gilchrists that pop up in the over 20 range every month or so. I also see Heidens,Red Diamonds, Gibson MM, Weber, Collings V', Ellis,Wood and so many others building really great mandolins,and I mean really great one. These compete with Gilchrist for many reasons. Do you think that the day of the desirable Gilchrist is ending. Ronnie now plays a Loar and the Dawg plays his Bluegrass on his new Red Diamond (who price is going up). Darn a Colling MT is sometimeds reviewd as the best on the wall for under 2 .???

[Gutbucket]

Not so much that these are becoming undesirable as #it's more tougher financial times right now. People are starting to dig deep and selling off their treasures. This is truly sad, but might be a great way to buy an otherwise unobtainable instrument.

[chip]

You don't see them dipping in the $15,000-$19,000 range so I don't think there is any lessening of pricing structure. A Mercedes is a Mercedes and a Ford a Ford. Quality will always bring higher prices and stability. What do you think a Gilchrist will bring 5 years from now? I'd venture to guess in the $28,000-$31,000 range, F5's. Any thoughts?

[bradeinhorn]

interesting - i'm not so sure people are selling due to hard times... i wouldn't imagine luxury items like mandolins at this level are consumed by those currently going into financial straights.

alternatively - perhaps this golden age of mandolin building that it seems like we're in is driving down the demand for builders like gilchrist whose secondary market prices are so high. additionally-as the four gil f5 mandos in the classifieds show - the asking prices aren't dropping, but perhaps time on the market is lengthening. with this many on the market though, i bet we'll see a decline in actual sale price.

[Glassweb]

Not so much that these are becoming undesirable as#it's more tougher financial times right now.

This is my "gut" instinct as well. It used to be just a few "top tier builders". Now there's a bunch of them. Find one of their best and you're really set. But yes, I know that April 15th looms large every year and spurs a selling frenzy. A very well-known player just told me he's considering selling his legendary axe for just this reason.

[uncle ken]

Don't forget that for every guy trying to raise some tax money right now there are probably two or three with a tax refund burning a hole in their pocket.

Also, if you have enough kids, you could get a decent used mandolin with your rebate in May. Just don't let your wife know about it.

[John Flynn]

I also think that people are realizing there are choices out there that are as good, or very close, for a lot less money and a lot less lead time.

[Rick Schmidlin]

What I have found is that in 1962 Roy Noble was the only major steel string guitar luthier in California. Clarence White played one his guitars( herad on the Mulskiner recordings) from 67-72. From there sprung two apprentices Mark Whitebook and David Russel Young. Whitebook built for James Taylor. Since then there are so many great luthiers that have been born. Even Martin had to pay attention. From Roys day he also remember a Bill Collings. With is golden age of Mandolins thanks part to Randy Wood we now have many Holy Grails to pick and choose from.

[sunburst]

Gilchrists are top quality mandolins. He's building the best mandolins of his life (so far) right now, from what I've seen. I don't think there is any decline in the desirability of Gilchrist mandolins, but I do think there are many more top quality mandolins available now than there used to be. If you don't want to wait for and pay for a Gilchrist these days, there are plenty of other choices of similar quality. That couldn't be said 10 or 15 years ago.

[red7flag]

I remember when I there were only a few makers making mandolins with that "Loar sound". #Now there are a number and some even under 10k. #I think the spectrum that is out there and expectations from the buyer has risen. #You look how the quality and range of offerings has risen. #You see what Gibson has done adding the DMM and MM. #Weber adding "Vintage" instruments and some of their custom mandos. #Collings adding a V(arnish) instrument. #Red Diamond adding "Crusher". #I have left out a number of other simply great sounding makers. #You see the trickle down effect has even change the expectation of the 1k market with the quality and sound of the pac rims just exploding (Eastmans, Kentucky to name a few). Just think of 5 yrs ago and how far we have come. #This is just an awesome time to be buying, learning and playing mandolin. #Gilcrhist is a wonderful instrument, but now there are a number of choices in that price bracket, and some less that can stand up to the litmus test.
Tony

[Potosimando]

I am deleting my initial paragraphs and leaving my original final paragraph. #The following (the original final paragraph) is all that I intended to write anyway, but thought by giving some personal firsthand observations it might explain where my opinion was coming from. # But...I wrote the darn thing in a hurry and inadvertently encouraged other posters (and readers, I’m sure) to take some of my comments out of context.

To answer the question in the original post: "Do you think that the day of the desirable Gilchrist is ending". # Not possible--once you play a good one (plenty of those to choose from), you will understand.

[Gary Hedrick]

I don't wonder as to why their are Gil's showing up......there are so many of them out there.....large numbers built mean large numbers in the used market when money is needed to be generated.

[kudzugypsy]

dont forget to add these VERY important reasons as to why you see so *many* gils for sale
1 - he has made 600+ mandolins...folks, that is a wild output at his level of perfection. no other luthier has that many mandos out there, thus more to circulate - i doubt you'll ever see more than 1-2 Dude's or Paganoni's for sale simply because there are so few of them.
2 - he's been building since 1979 - meaning, naturally, some buyers have moved or lost interest, got divorced, died, illness, etc
3 - 90% of the owners of these mandolins got in back when you could get a gil for WAY less. so, if someone bought a gil in 1993 for $4800 (about what they were going for as i recall) then its tempting to cash in on the appreciation.
4 - you only seem to notice/remember the *good* stuff - how many F5G's or MT's have you seen for sale and it never even registers
oh and another:
- maybe some players thing the *best* mandolin will elevate their playing to unreal levels...which it never will - so they sell & downgrade.

In the LONG view of history (ie-100+years) - i think there will be 2 names that become imbedded in mando-lore...Loar, of course, and Gilchrist. imo, its much like the Amati-Strad violin relationship of the late 1600s-early 1700s. there were A LOT of great builders then, but the 2 *modern* builders people know are Stradivarius and Guarneri, who took Amati's idea of a violin and perfected it.

[fredfrank]

Of course, what nobody is telling here, is the fact that even though a Gilchrist is one of the finest mandolins being built, there is a problem. When Steve ships them to the USA from Australia, the wood begins a deterioration that is almost imperceptible. The actual shelf life on a Gil is not known at this time, but there is definitely a finite amount of time for these fine mandolins when you get one.

Some folks know this, and attempt to sell them before the wood completely goes kaput. Hopefully, if anyone buys a used Gil, they won't be the one holding the bag when it all turns to dust. Perhaps someday we'll know the exact number of years these things are good for, but until then, just keep rotating through 'em.

[bradeinhorn]

I have not played or even heard Dawg's Red Diamond or Ronnie's Loar, but in general I feel safe in saying that regardless of the buzz about various top-flight mandolins, serious long-term players/owners will continue to gravitate towards Gilchrist mandolins,simply because many of the Gilchrists out there are at the pinacle of mandolin tone (not to mention the playability aspects, and so forth).

this is kind of a silly statement.... whatever "the pinnacle of mandolin tone" is, i think a lot of people could make a case for several different builders' instruments. that's because it's a pretty subjective title, and also because there are increasingly more and more excellent new builders entering the market or maturing in their careers currently. i was alluding to this in my initial post, but i think it will be increasingly hard for the secondary market to maintain its current price level on many of the upper (price) echelon mandolin builders as these new builders continue to mature and the pool of those building continues to expand. Time on the market and amount of stock on the market are indicators of this.

[mandopete]

Of course, what nobody is telling here, is the fact that even though a Gilchrist is one of the finest mandolins being built, there is a problem. When Steve ships them to the USA from Australia, the wood begins a deterioration that is almost imperceptible.

Oh Fred, surely you jest!

[fredfrank]

Most certainly, I do!

Of course, every mandolin suffers from this affliction. I doubt any of us will ever see the complete cycle of a mandolin's life, but they will eventually turn to dust.

[JAK]

Have we ever had a download to "Guess which mando is the Gil?" I know we've had some with other mandolins (e.g. pick the Loar), but haven't seen one with a Gil in the mix.

[red7flag]

I have had the pleasure to spend some time with with a Gil and a Loar, unfortunately not at the same time. I loved each and would have loved to have either, but they seemed a bit different, to me a novice. The Loar had the strongest mid of any mandolin I have ever played and was even through the registers with no distinct high and low. The Gil had a very strong bass and high and not as much mid. The Gil's bass just vibrated against me. Both outstanding instruments, but to me different beasts.
Tony

[SternART]

I agree, I think Gils sound like they do, and Loars are different (now) but Steve's might sound BETTER than Loars
after they are 80 years old. Steve is one of the premier luthiers out there, and he is finally dealing without
someone in the middle. After all these years of hard work (he builds way more instruments per year than most luthiers)
he deserves to get market price for them. Buyers aren't able to double their money anymore, but the instruments
speak for themselves, they are pretty darn fabulous tools for making music. It might take longer to sell one now with
the economy the way it is....but IMO they will hold their value.

[Glassweb]

Between his passion for the F5 mandolin, natural talents with wood and amazing work ethic I think Steve's body of work will remain unequalled for a long, long time. And, given his age, I'd say that the next 20 years will be his greatest as a luthier.

[Crowder]

I agree, I think Gils sound like they do, and Loars are different (now) but Steve's might sound BETTER than Loars
after they are 80 years old.

Following that logic, the Loars at that time will be, what 160 years old, and therefore twice as good as they are now?

I've long questioned whether a mandolin can change much past a nominal length of time, say ten years just to pick a number. Obviously they'll develop differently depending on how they are played. But the tree doesn't keep growing once it's been cut down.

I haven't played a Loar but I had the pleasure of hearing Alan Bibey play his up close this week. It was fantastic. My bandmate has a mid-90's Gil, and I'm thinking if I put it in Bibey's hands and stood back I'd think it sounded fantastic also. It sure sings when I play it, and I'm no Alan Bibey!

The only evidence I have that a Gil (or any other top modern mandolin) falls anywhere short of a Loar is that players like Bibey, Thile, Reishmann, McCoury and Grisman (for many years) will take their Loars on tour. Putting that kind of asset at risk of theft or accidental damage suggests that the other mandolins to which they have access must not entirely measure up in the opinion of these to players. That may explain why Grisman's endorsement of Red Diamond is so effective.

Wow, how far off-topic can I get this reply anyway??

[Chris Biorkman]

I have not played or even heard Dawg's Red Diamond or Ronnie's Loar, but in general I feel safe in saying that regardless of the buzz about various top-flight mandolins, serious long-term players/owners will continue to gravitate towards Gilchrist mandolins,simply because many of the Gilchrists out there are at the pinacle of mandolin tone (not to mention the playability aspects, and so forth).

this is kind of a silly statement.... whatever "the pinnacle of mandolin tone" is, i think a lot of people could make a case for several different builders' instruments. that's because it's a pretty subjective title, and also because there are increasingly more and more excellent new builders entering the market or maturing in their careers currently. i was alluding to this in my initial post, but i think it will be increasingly hard for the secondary market to maintain its current price level on many of the upper (price) echelon mandolin builders as these new builders continue to mature and the pool of those building continues to expand. Time on the market and amount of stock on the market are indicators of this.

I thought that was a little silly too. It's like saying Gilchrist is the only choice for the discriminating mandolinist. You can't be a serious player unless you have one. Ridiculous.

[Glassweb]

I've long questioned whether a mandolin can change much past a nominal length of time, say ten years just to pick a number. Obviously they'll develop differently depending on how they are played.

I can state from first hand (actually first and second hand) experience that even old mandolins can change drastically if they're played aggressively and, most importantly, regularly. When I got my 25' Fern a couple of years back it sounded great. Then I restored the original bridge and that made a huge difference with the bass strings. I then began playing it alot. It got alot better. Now, a few years down the road, it's REALLY getting amazing. The quality of the tone, response, volume... I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining this change since a friend of mine has noticed the maturity as well. Another friend of mine had a killer Dec. 1 1924 Loar. It sounded fantastic when he got it and it changed for the better and better the more he played - which he did almost daily for the 12 years he owned it. It now sounds better than ever with marked improvement in all ranges and all over the board. To be sure... even old "dogs" can surprise you with new tricks.

[kudzugypsy]

back in the 80s onward, (and i'm sure with violins it goes back further) as the pre-war craze was all the rage, many of the stringed instrument luthiers have attempted to artificially *age* their instruments coming off the bench to sound like an 80 year old instrument. - it can be done, the problem is that it was revealed within a few years, that these instruments started to actually #lose tone instead of gaining it, as would normally happen. i had this very thing happen to me with a Santa Cruz Tony Rice model guitar i bought in 1989 - within 3 years it had 2 neck resets and was just going downhill by the year....but boy did it sound good that first 6 months!!!

what Steve even said in an interview i read was that he is building them now to eventually get that very desired Loar mid-range - and that you can not effectively build that into a new mandolin - it has to come with playing and age. i dont even know that he will build an X braced mandolin anymore (remember those were HOT in the 90's) because he felt that what it gained off the bench it lost over time. i think this is what separates many of the luthiers. when you have built 600 mandolins, with the large majority of those in the possession of the finest players in the world, you begin to really understand the art. the fact that his workmanship is flawless and his varnish, by far the best i have seen are just icing on the cake - its his understanding of how this mandolin will sound in 5-10-25 years that puts him at the top, imo.

dont forget that with his NEW mandolins, the US$ to AU$ conversion is really becoming a factor. he is now losing money on the currency conversion (quite a lot) - so even now that he is selling *direct*, he is losing far more on the currency exchange rate (when selling to the US) than he did with a dealer - i think in the 90's it was like - $8,000 US dollars was $12,000 AU$ - now its the reverse!!!! so expect the value of Gils to continue to rise as this is factored in. what does the AU$-US$ have to do with mandolins already here? well nothing, but he will have to raise his US prices even more now to make up for that currency loss (just like a canadian Calton case is now $700!)