Why mandolins never became popular in itm

[Eddie Sheehy]

In Gaelic Mythology there is a story about a king named Lowery who had horse's ears. The story goes that he concealed his ears under a large crown and let his hair grow long. He had his hair cut once a year and then the barber, who now knew the king's secret - and it was a well-guarded secret, was executed so he couldn't spill the beans. Now one year the poor barber who was chosen begged for his life after the haircut. He plead his case so convincingly that Lowery agreed to spare his life on the condition that he should never reveal the secret to another person. The barber agreed and was spared. A year later the barber was on his death-bed. No doctor could cure him. A wise man examined him and said that his condition was because of a terrible secret that he concealed. His only hope was to tell the secret to someone. The barber said that he had promised never to tell the secret to another person. The wise man said that in that case he should tell the secret to a living plant and that would be as good. The barber went deep into the forest and told his secret to a beautiful tree - probably the only mesquite tree in Ireland - this is not in the original story but it makes more sense of the end I have, which is also not in the original story. He immediately recovered and got on with his coiffing. Later that year there was a huge banquet and the king ordered the most famous musician in the land - a mandolinist named Liam Munroe (also not in the story, it was a harpist) - to come and play for him. Liam decided to make a new type of mandolin - a Folk Loar. He went deep into the forest and saw the same tree. He cut it down and carted the wood back to his workshop...

[Eddie Sheehy]

.... His skilled hands fashioned a beautiful mandolin complete with an F scroll with a sine fada and a buailte on it. He took the mandolin to the kings banquet. The king called for silence for Liam. Liam strummed the strings of the mandolin. A hauntingly beautiful music came forth and filled the great hall. The sounds reverberated from the rafters and seemed to form words. The words became clearer and louder...LOUDER: "LOWERY THE KING HAS HORSE'S EARS..."
We know that the tree was Mesquite because of what happened to the mandolin which led to the first Irish barbecue.....

And Mandolins were banished forever from the Halls of the Kings.

Lowery was always a gloomy king but now we know why he had such a long face
Sin a bhfuil. [B]

[Gerry Cassidy]

[Bren]

It's funny that mandolins are now considered not part of Irish trad music.
The first recorded Irish music I was aware of and really paid attention to in the 60s: Clancy Brothers & Dubliners, then later Planxty - all featured mandolins or banjo strongly and I formed the impression that it was integral.
In the Clancy Brothers the only melody instruments you heard were whistle and mandolin (Peter Seeger I think, on "Leaving of Liverpool")
Then of course Barney on banjo in the Dubliners defined the Irish sound for a generation, and he did mando solos and duets (with John Sheahan presumably?)

The other day as I was driving with iPod plugged in on "shuffle", as one does, on came Planxty with the polka set starting Dennis Murphy's Polka/The £42 Cheque/John Ryan's and it seemed to me that there could be few recorded expressions of Irish music to match it. Mandolin, bouzouki, bodhran and then pipes. A combo that would have many of the neo-traditionalists shuddering in distaste, but perfect in that moment.

[dave17120]

"It's funny that mandolins are now considered not part of Irish trad music."

What I'd like to know is who 'they' are who do not consider mandolins a part of ITM?

Dave

[Bren]

It's an opinion I've heard a bit recently Dave.
There are those who believe that Irish trad consists of fiddle, flute and pipes and maybe harp at a stretch, and nothing else.

Not widespread in Scotland, I hasten to add! Fortunately for me they are a musically promiscuous lot here

[POB]

There are those who believe that Irish trad consists of fiddle, flute and pipes and maybe harp at a stretch, and nothing else.

Everyone has their own take on how they define a genre of music. Otherwise, there would be no separate forums here for Bluegrass, Jazz, Celtic etc. There are those who chose to define ITM strictly in terms of the instruments listed above and that's fine, as long as they're civil about it.

Those instruments have been around in ITM the longest. Apart from the harp (which represents a somewhat separate subtradition anyway) they share a very important characteristic: they lend themselves very naturally to certain vocal articulations that have come to define ITM in the form which has been handed down to us: slurs, sustain, cuts, taps, rolls and all the rest. Newer instruments to the tradition may or may not lend themselves naturally to these articulations. This is neither good nor bad, but it does make for a different accent. When we go to hand this music down to the next generation, it won't be the same as it was handed to us. Personally, I can live with that, for the most part. We're bloody lucky to have anything to hand down at all. The old accent isn't lost. That's what recording technology is for. Anyone who wants to, in 50 years time, can hear how things sounded in 2008 (or 1958) and do what they want with that.

Where the finger-pointing comes into it is when people hear something, don't like it and then try to rationalise why they don't like it. So you can have "keepers of the flame" who just don't like the sound of the mandolin (which is not unreasonable) and then justify this position by saying that it can't articulate the same way as the pipes, or whatever. Then we mandolin players get all defensive and start saying "you can play rolls on the mandolin!". Then the traditionalist gets frustrated when the mandolin player keeps talking about Planxty, as if Ireland and her music didn't exist before 1971. Then the mandolin player howls in disbelief when the traditionalist turns out to have no problem with sound of a thump-thump piano in a céilí band, or a button accordion, something that's no more indigenous than a mandolin. Thus a tradition-versus-innovation debate breaks out and people waste a lot of time that could have been spent playing music.

As regards attitude problems here in Ireland, for what it's worth, the only time in my 30 years of playing this music that I was made feel unwelcome at a session was in Milwaukee by a group of English- and American-based musicians. I can quite happily turn up at my own sessions here in Galway with a guitar or a bouzouki or a mandolin or even, on occasion,a Weissenborn-style guitar and nobody gives a damn.

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, I have a question. In your story a year later the barber was on his death-bed. Then the barber went deep into the forest and told his secret to a beautiful tree. That seems like a major feat for a guy that was on his death-bed. We need to resolve that part. Perhaps his trusted hearing impaired man servant could have carried him there and thus been unable to hear the confession.

All I ask is the fables make sense.

[dave17120]

I can't off-hand think of many groups that play ITM that do not feature a mandolin at some point or other, how popular and frequent it is is I guess down to individual preferences.

Historically ITM was harp and 'mouth music' and perhaps bodhran or bones, when the average peasant didn't have access to instruments and only the wandering minstrels who had court patronnage had harps. Other instruments like pipes came along later... then fiddle, flute and whistle as instruments became more accessible, and much later still guitar, banjo and other instruments like the mandolin, and various squeeze boxes. Probably the latest arrival being the bouzouki.

Even the tunes have been sujected to change and evolution. O'Carolan's music is very characteristic, but involves mostly planxtys, airs and marches. To this early repertoire we then add jigs and reels, and only much later polkas, mazurkas and the like, which now feel so traditional.

It leads me to ask "what is traditional?"
For me it is only really the time preceding the current one, say within living memory. Groups that perform in the style of the preceding epoch are those that are considered traditional maybe. In the era of Danu, Planxty might be considered trad., whilst in Planxty's era, the Dubliners were, and before them the Clancys, and before that the thudding Ceilidh bands and before that the pipe soloist and so on.

For me the essence of ITM is the tune style, the rhythms, and the soul of the music. It has been brought home to me living now in France, when I listen to Breton music.... some excellent stuff, but there is something quintissentially different about its rhythms and style, and I find it much harder to learn and play because its not in my bones like Irish music is.

For what its worth, our trad Irish group features 2 mandolinists. Just some thoughts, I'll get down off my soap box now. Dave

[POB]

It leads me to ask "what is traditional?"

The trouble with asking that is people will tell you.

[John Flynn]

One issue I can see with mandolins in sessions is that in a big session, with say, a set of pipes, a couple of whistles or flutes, a couple of fiddlers, a resonator tenor banjo, a concertina, a bodhran and a guitar, it is hard to hear a mandolin. Heck, it is hard for the mandolin player to hear himself! Of course, this is also true of other kinds of big jams.

This idea will really be "non-traditional," but I used to go to a session where they have a really good mando player who has a Sobell mando that sounded great solo, but he was getting completely drowned out. He finally got a National Reso and put flatwound strings on it to take the brassy-ness out of the tone. I never would have thought that instrument would fit in a session, but thanks to his great playing, it really works. It blends very well and can be heard loud and clear with most of the instruments above going strong.

[POB]

Quote (dave17120 @ Aug. 13 2008, 13:46)
It leads me to ask "what is traditional?"

The trouble with asking that is people will tell you.

Sorry - I came over as a wise guy there. What I mean is that I believe there are as many answers to that question as there are people with an opinion on the matter. Some opinions are inevitably more informed than others - a piper who's been playing for 50 years probably knows more about ITM than a 20-year-old jazz saxophonist who bought his first Altan CD last Tuesday.

I think that asking "what is traditional" leads to the never-ending, never-getting-anywhere debate about tradition versus innovation. I much rather have someone give me some facts rather than opinions. If I have facts, I can form my own opinions. And if we're not getting into a heated debate about tradition versus innovation, there is a better chance that the facts will be properly presented and absorbed. So, the fact is, the pipes are here longer than the mandolin and the pipes have very different characteristics to the mandolin. However, it is an opinion to draw the conclusion that the mandolin can't be used as a tool to play traditional Irish music properly. It is also an opinion to say that it can.

I think that "what is traditional?" is a good question to ask oneself, though. However, I'm coming round to the view that a better question is "What will I do next, in order to learn more about this music that has taken my interest?". The answer to that could be to play more at sessions, to get lessons, to read books on the subject, to check out Planxty, to check out Séamus Ennis, to go to lectures, to practise, to listen, listen, listen...you get my drift.

In other words, get factual knowledge and play and listen a lot. Build a feel for the thing, rather than building an arbitrary intellectual theory based on received wisdom. And enjoy it.

[steve V. johnson]

Claughaun wrote, in his wonderful and funny story, "His skilled hands fashioned a beautiful mandolin complete with an F scroll with a sine fada and a buailte on it."

I wonder if you have a drawing of your visioin of that sine fada and buailte? Sounds lovely!

Great story, thanks!!

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Pádraig wrote & quoted:
"Quote Quote (dave17120 @ Aug. 13 2008, 13:46)
It leads me to ask "what is traditional?"

The trouble with asking that is people will tell you.

Sorry - I came over as a wise guy there. "

I got a good laugh from it, and got your point, too. Good wise-guy stuff.

stv

[steve V. johnson]

I wonder where this fits in... On one of the archival collections of recordings that I have (somewhere here, on CD... can't find it just this minute...) I remember a duet from the 1920's, with one fellow on fiddle (I think) and the other on a banjo mandolin.

As I recall from the text, these guys were a pretty big deal. I don't recall which side of the Atlantic they inhabited...

But that seems to suggest that some form of mandolining was at least somewhat familiar, if not prominent, in ITM in that period.

I have to go and find that CD...

stv

stv

[Eddie Sheehy]

OK, I have a question. In your story a year later the barber was on his death-bed. Then the barber went deep into the forest and told his secret to a beautiful tree. That seems like a major feat for a guy that was on his death-bed. We need to resolve that part. Perhaps his trusted hearing impaired man servant could have carried him there and thus been unable to hear the confession.

All I ask is the fables make sense.

It's quite common for a man on his death-bed in Ireland to drag himself down to the local for an anointing. It's not too much of a stretch to drag oneself deep into the forest considering the plethora of pubs that might be on the way. He was probably just suffering from alcoholic constipation - the inability to pass a pub.

If you want fables that make sense try Aesop.....

[MikeEdgerton]

suddenly it's clear

[Eddie Sheehy]

Claughaun wrote, in his wonderful and funny story, "His skilled hands fashioned a beautiful mandolin complete with an F scroll with a sine fada and a buailte on it."

I wonder if you have a drawing of your visioin of that sine fada and buailte? Sounds lovely!

Great story, thanks!!

stv

I'm not much of an artist. The 'sine fada and bualite' being accents in Gaelic convey the 'bells and whistles' concept, or ornamentation - the literary and physical ideas of triplets and hammer-ons/pull-offs....

If anyone has a mental image of that mandolin I'd appreciate seeing a drawing....

You're welcome for the story Steve. I was on a road trip last week with the kids and told some "embellished" gaelic Mythological stories to the 5 kids to keep them amused.... are we there yet?

[dave17120]

'It leads me to ask "what is traditional?"

The trouble with asking that is people will tell you.


Sorry - I came over as a wise guy there. What I mean is that I believe there are as many answers to that question as there are people with an opinion on the matter.'

No problems there, that's why I answered my own question. It doesn't really matter to me. If traditional is only what the previous generation played, then its just a snapshot in time. The important thing for me is that the spiurit of the music is kept alive.....and if it is it will continue to evolve and change.

I think you are absolutely right Padraig, enjoy it, that's the most important thing, and thats what I do.

And thanks for the story by the way.....can we have the final edited version now please??

[Eddie Sheehy]

Sin sceal eile Daithi.

[billkilpatrick]

might the mandolin - and anything preceding it (gitterns, etc.) have been considered as foreign imports (english, etc.) in relation to the bona fide, èire go brách harp?

[Eddie Sheehy]

The GITtern certainly sounds English.

[Jim MacDaniel]

If you want fables that make sense try Aesop.....

You mean the ones with all those talking animals?

[steve V. johnson]

Jim, it looks like your avatar said that last question. Perfect! LOL!!

stv

[steve V. johnson]

billkilpatrick (on a break from ripening olives) asked, "might the mandolin - and anything preceding it (gitterns, etc.) have been considered as foreign imports (english, etc.) in relation to the bona fide, èire go brách harp? "

I've read some scholars' opinions that the accordion came from Germany or Italy, violins from Italy, whistles and flutes from elsewhere, etc., etc., so it seems accepted that an Island nation, fraught with sailors, will end up with instruments from all over the place.

If I have my history straight, the harp and the pipes were banned from public performance (at least from use by common folks) for some time by the English, so
prejudices against anything else they could play to make music might have worn pretty thin...

So, for my part, I don't think 'Huh, that's no harp, mate, so get that thing out of here!' probably didn't have much to do with defining the instrumentation of
Irish music...

stv