double stops "up the neck"

[RickPick]

I've recently figures out how to pick out melodies "up the neck", using the plant-your-pointer-finger-on-the-root-note method. It works quite well, and I keep getting better at it BUT.... I miss the double stops (or accidental notes?) of open strings of my old method of picking out the melody down on the bottom few frets. Once I get up the neck, are there double stop positions I should know about to go along with the fingers for the melody notes? The way I'm doing it now, picking melodies "up the neck" just sounds kinda Plain Jane by comparison.

[almeriastrings]

Loads....one of the most basic (but effective) is just to stop the A and E strings with your first finger, say, at the 3rd, 5th or 7th fret and play around with that. So, if on the 5th, you can find some nice scale and unison/drone things 2, 4 and 5 frets above that. In fact you can play some whole tunes like that....

[onassis]

For me, the first step was figuring out how double stops linked together in a I-IV-V pattern, just like getting comfortable with playing chop chord progressions. Then seeing how the notes of a fairly simple melody (9 pound hammer, for example) can lead from the I chord double stop to the IV double stop, then back to the I, then V, then end at the I. Hard to explain succinctly, but for me there was an "Aha!" moment where I began to see how these things can link together. It opens up the fretboard like nothing else.

[Phil Goodson]

Read 'Guide to Doublestops' very thoroughly. I promise that you'll benefit.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Great advice above! I'm mainly a guit picker, and I'm new to mando, too.

String instruments have an advantage over keys and wind instruments. It seems like what's true for guitar is true for mando: once your hands are used to double stops in one key, they become automatic in other keys.

Mando is trickier than guitar in that it takes more notes to get from one string to another, but that's much more a melody issue than a double-stop issues.

Meanwhile, mando has a major advantage over guitar in that it's easier because the layout is more regular. That means that the double-stop patterns are the same for each string pair. Only the locations are different, and as you've already figured out, knowing where the root notes are gives you places to start.

[RickPick]

Wow! That Guide to Doublestops looks like it will take me exactly where I wanted to go! I had no idea it was out there. Glad I asked! And thanks -- as ever -- for the other ideas. Before I get buried in the Guide, I think I'll spend the day trying out the suggestions of almeria strings and onassis. Thank goodness for retirement

[Mandoplumb]

Look at what Onassis said. Learn where the double stops are and how the relate to each other. In my opinion you can't do this trying to plant one finger for location, that may help short term in finding melody up the neck but soon in order to really play you have to give that up.

[almeriastrings]

Look at what Onassis said. Learn where the double stops are and how the relate to each other. In my opinion you can't do this trying to plant one finger for location, that may help short term in finding melody up the neck but soon in order to really play you have to give that up.

Indeed.. but... if you are totally new to mandolin, and the 'feel' of double course strings at high tension on a relatively narrow fingerboard (compared to guitar), it can take some time to learn how to get really clean and accurate double-stops. Once you have that down (the 'technique'), exploring the relationships (the 'theory') can be viewed as a separate process in its own right. I think it depends on what approach works for you.

[RickPick]

For me right now, I think it is the "theory" break-through I'm seeking. I understand what notes in each key would be appropriate spots to seek a good-sounding double stop (DS). And I play some "learned" DSs in breaks I've learned from books for specific tunes. But as I've been venturing up the neck to play breaks in keys that might accompany the singer (F? B? Bb?etc), about all I've managed to do is play one note at a time. I'm hoping to learn the relationship between those fingers when the index (or sometimes the ring) finger is on the root note. With these suggestions, and lots of messing about, I hope to be able to play DSs as I'm up the neck in relatively unfamiliar territory. Thanks for the guidance -- now back to exploring that mandolin neck!

[mandroid]

Call it "diatonic harmonizing the melody line" if you will.. ..

[Mandoplumb]

I think we need to define double stops the same way. I say a double stop is two noted strings, not one noted and one open, the open one is not stopped. That is harmonizing notes not double stops. Now with that in mind A double stop on the second and third step is the same shape as on the tenth and eleventh fret. If your harmonizing double is the second fret and open then up the neck it is tenth and eighth. This is mechanical not theory. Theory is important but can be confusing if tried to apply to every situation, yes theory will explain just about anything but remember KISS

[RickPick]

Yes, I've had similar discussions about what constitutes a DS and what is simply a drone in fiddle music chats. But for the record, what I'm wanting to sort out here are definitely two stopped notes. When I speak of playing "up the neck", I'm talking about playing ONLY stopped notes (no open strings), whether melodic or harmonic. When I pick out a melody on the lower 5 or 6 frets, it is easy enough to actually play a harmonic open string with a note of melody (as well as thrown in the occasional true DS). But once you're up the neck, that becomes far less possible. Hence, I was hoping (STILL AM!) that I'll be able to figure out a system so that, say, when my fingers are in a certain position (index on the root note, ring finger on the root), and I know more or less where the notes in that key might be lurking for my other fingers, I'll ALSO be able to find where I can put ANOTHER finger to create a DS. I'm thinking there MIGHT be a mechanical way to learn this, and once that's learned, those DS could be played up or down the neck in any key that I might choose for the melody. Possibly what I'm seeking can't be had short of 10 years of poking around, or maybe learning a bazillion three-finger chords for all keys, but I'm an optimist ???? with a little help from my friends.... Mandoplumb: You say "A double stop on the second and third step is the same shape as on the tenth and eleventh fret." Gotcha. But is there some "code" that tells me which of those notes in the scale will be harmonic, given my finger position on the fretboard? Or do I just have to a) listen or b) figure out 3rds and 5ths in each instance?

[Phil Goodson]

Rick, the "Guide ...." will answer all of what you describe.

[Gina Willis]

The Pickloser guide was a real "aha" for me, too.

Even just the naming of the patterns (uptent, downtent, two-spacer, etc.) gave me a mental device that I was able to put to work immediately.

[RickPick]

Great! I'm working my way through it, but I keep getting distracted by Mandolin Cafe and by my mandolin!!! Lucky guy, me!!

[bigskygirl]

All good advice in this thread and Pickloser’s guide is great, Pete Martin has one on DS you might check out. For me though, DS became clear one day at music camp when Sharon Gilchrist explained them. She calls them neighborhoods and once you know the system you can do them in any key. She teaches at Peghead Nation and you can get a free month to check it out. Once you have them under your fingers it’s fun to spice up - or sometimes just survive - breaks.

[Mandoplumb]

Rickpick because the mandolin is on fifths we work it in patterns, up and down the neck or from string to string. Look for patterns. Maybe the book recommended will help it wasn't available when I was learning but use any help you can find and watch for the pattern. It will suddenly become apparent and you'll wonder why you didn't see bit all along.

[RickPick]

Yes, my musical exploration thus far has been a delightful sequence of Aha/Eureka moments and epiphanies. I'm just itching for one coming up real soon related to DS! Thanks for all the direction. Your bathtubs will likely overflow when the moment comes!

[JeffD]

Rick you probably have figured this out, but just for completeness - your four finger movable chords can be reduced to three different double stops just by removing either the bottom or top two fingers or one on each side. That's kind of where I started. Take a big ole bluegrass chord and break it apart.

[RickPick]

Phil, I just got to the Tiny/Up TENT/Down TENT section of Laura's wonderful book. It is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. I had found some useful videos (some mentioned above) for using DS on specific songs in specific keys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzuxBcbkpns AND https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBE1NvRReis&t=417s). That had led me to hear the wonderful addition to melody by adding some DS. But I hadn't figured out how to get there when I was playing up the neck in keys to accommodate other factors (cranky banjo players, singers, etc). So Laura's Guide to Double Stops is just what I want! Thanks for pointing me there, Phil, and thanks to Laura for creating it! We all learn in our own ways, and Laura's book suits my style just perfectly!

[Mark Wilson]

Read 'Guide to Doublestops' very thoroughly. I promise that you'll benefit.

I read this guide getting tires this morning. Giving the shapes names seemed ott at first but it actually stuck in my head just from reading. Good read! thanks for posting I love doublestops - without them I don't think mandolin would be as much fun

[onassis]

Rick you probably have figured this out, but just for completeness - your four finger movable chords can be reduced to three different double stops just by removing either the bottom or top two fingers or one on each side. That's kind of where I started. Take a big ole bluegrass chord and break it apart.

Exactly. This was one of my first DS epiphanies. Now it's becoming ever more obvious that any chord can be broken down like this. I'm currently trying to figure out efficient swing progressions using only double stops.

[RustyMadd]

Great posting and subject. I am totally familiar with my triad forms all over the neck, but ironically I mostly don't see my double stops. I know, I know it makes no sense. That is why I am grateful to the original poster for bringing me back to some essential fundamentals. Thanks RickPick and blessings to all.

[Phil Goodson]

Phil, I just got to the Tiny/Up TENT/Down TENT section of Laura's wonderful book. It is EXACTLY what I'm looking for.......Thanks for pointing me there, Phil, and thanks to Laura for creating it! We all learn in our own ways, and Laura's book suits my style just perfectly!

Rick: I'm glad I could help point you to good info. Laura's book really did it for me. She spent a lot of time on it and did a great job. Later the book describes easy ways to use double-stops to move in I-IV-V patterns and more. It quickly becomes second nature and is a great tool for impromptu musical breaks and accompaniment.
Best to you.