Acoustic pickup comparisons?

[foldedpath]

I'm another big fan of clip-on mini condenser mics. There is just no comparison to the sound of any pickup system, and the gain before feedback is better than an external mic on a stand. It's true that you lose the external mic's ability to alter volume level with distance, but an external mic can always be used for solos if needed (also a good visual cue for the audience).

I would use a pickup if I frequently played on stages with very hot monitor levels, because that's the only solution. Luckily, I'm able to avoid that scene. Here's my setup with a DPA4099. I use the same mics on octave mandolin, guitar, and fiddle, and they also work great with wireless systems:

[Beanzy]

I don’t mind the piezo JJB on my cheaper instrument, but for my fiddle and good mandolin I use a very nice condenser mic (Sony ECM77) I custom mount with micro xlrs. Mostly I just use a third one as a lavaliere and only use the close mounted ones when it’s going to be loud, so I can use a lower gain level. Having said that most of the band stuff is a 5 piece including drums and 2 electric guitars and the lavaliere mic is normally not a feedback issue if we’re using our own PA set up & that means I can swap instruments mid tune.
If we’re at the mercy of someone else's sound ideas, then the close mounted mics or cheaper mando with pickup are likely to cope better.
The good quality small condenser mics are a different league to the pick-ups and I lose a lot of enthusiasm if I can’t enjoy the quality of the instruments on stage; I can get a bit like I’m just getting through the poor experience and that can affect my enthusiasm & playing.
But the pick ups aren’t too bad sounding if you just want to poke it out there into the mix and not care too much about subtleties.
I reckon by the time you’re too loud to be able to control a mounted condenser mic, the probability is that no one’s hearing much more than the vague idea of a mandolin type sound anyway.

[Altivo]

The "clip-on" to which I was referring is the borrowed violin pickup that I said I was going to try. It is just that, a plastic clip similar to those used by some tuner devices. It is not anything like the devices in your photos. I remain confident that it is a piezoelectric transducer. The packaging says it is made by "HDE" and says it is a "Clip On Acoustic to Electronic Adapter Amplifier Converter." How's that for a mouthful of gibberish? Probably a literal translation word for word of something in Chinese, I guess.

And in spite of that, as I said in my previous remarks, it doesn't sound all that bad so I am confident that something more precise and professional such as JJB's made in America pickup designs will be adequate for my needs.

[foldedpath]

The "clip-on" to which I was referring is the borrowed violin pickup that I said I was going to try. It is just that, a plastic clip similar to those used by some tuner devices. It is not anything like the devices in your photos.

Right, I was pretty sure that was the case. Realize that to a certain extent, we're all commenting not just on your choices and situation, but about amplification in general. With a thread title like "Acoustic pickup comparisons?" many other people will dig up this thread in the future with a forum search. It's good to know about all the options.

Also, you said up-thread that "I'd like to find a pickup system that will preserve and amplify that tone quality, rather than change it into something else."

Well, that's a microphone and not a contact pickup. We've laid out some options there.

[Verne Andru]

There are several choices in piezo - the under-saddle sort, K&K buttons sort and the RMC variety. KMC sounds the best but are only available on Godin mandos.

The under-saddle will "chirp" under moderate play because the force of being sandwiched between the bridge and the top pushes the crystals into distortion (heard as the dreaded piezo chirp). They sound "piezo" and will feedback fairly easily.

K&K sort are usually mounted under the soundboard (mando top) and can sound pretty good depending on their placement. But these are prone to feedback as well.

Then you have the magnetic pickups similar to what you get on a guitar. These will give you a more guitar-ish tone as a consequence but are less prone to feedback.

What I ended up doing on mine (my avatar) was to put 2 K&K-style piezo buttons under the soundboard and a magnetic pickup at the end of the fretboard. I have a 3-way switch and both pups have volume control. I find the best tone is the blend between the two but soloing either gives useful sounds that can be complimentary

[pops1]

I will say it again, I get a great sound with the K&K. I didn't mount it in a traditional way, I did a lot of experimenting and talking with K&K. I ended up using tape, but super glued the tape to the mandolin, supergluing the tape to another piece of tape and then supergluing that to the pickup. I wanted it to be secure and not come loose as the tape can, but wanted it to be warmer too. K&K now has in their instructions for tape to use two layers. I added the superglue. I must have installed and uninstalled more times than I can remember trying to get the best sound. I used magnetic pickups and various methods of installation of piezo's. This was the final installation. I have had many compliments on the sound of my mandolin with this system.

[Altivo]

Indeed. And where did those K&K pickups end up? Inquiring minds want to know.

[pops1]

Indeed. And where did those K&K pickups end up? Inquiring minds want to know.

Actually I made a tool to remove them and only damaged one pickup.

[Dave Greenspoon]

No - it isn't.

It uses a piezo film. It it absolutely nothing like a ribbon mic.

My misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.

[Dave Greenspoon]

<< The low G string is just under 200hz. If you can t cut everything below that, you will get a much cleaner signal.>>

Yep. Here it is. I turned the bass setting on the Baggs DI to null, cut the low-mid response to under 200, and the Radius sounds much better. Thanks Robert Fear!

[Bill Cameron]

Schertler Dyn-M pickup is a good option for you. You keep it in a special box, put it on the mando top with special putty when you need it. And yes, you can use it on any instrument you fancy, once or a hundred times. Lots of discussion in other threads about the quirky design decision of an xlr plug on a fixed length cable which no one likes the length of—but no one disses the sound, which is very-good to excellent. (I’m sure someone will diss the sound now. Ignore them.) It sounds like a mandolin, not like a Led Zep effect.
You can run it direct into board, (use an additional xlr cable to comfortably reach that far)or into an eq if you need it, and adapt to 1/4” plug if necessary while maintaining good fidelity and output.

You may think mandolin is just a new colour for your palette and the 304 is all you’ll ever need, and maybe that’s true, but a lot of us started out thinking that. And here you are... running with a fast crowd.=

The other thing to understand is that micing a mando without feedback issues is much easier than miking a guitar, even in a noisy club. I use a Shure SM-137 condenser mike when not hooking up the Dyn-M. About $200. The Dyn-M might cost $400 new (worth it) or you could get a gently used one (not everyone takes to them, I used mine 3 times the first year I had it, but now I use it all the time) for down around $200 with luck.

[Jim]

I installed a single piezo disc in my oval hole mandolin, sounds great. I have a bridge pickup on another f type mandolin, it resists feedback better but doesn't sound as good . I feel 1 or 2 discs inside body , under bridge is the way to go. Pre amp/di is required. I use a behringer usually straight to the board or an LR baggs mixpro which hangs on my belt when I don't want my box on the floor. I prefer the Behringer ADI because it has xlr output as well as 1/4 in

[mandroid]

XLR is your DI, down to Mic level , but a 3 conductor cable is less subject to RFI..

there are little shelf mounts that go on Mic Stands to get your floor box off the floor..

[John Flynn]

I can only tell you what has worked, and not worked, for me:

• Shure Beta 57A mike - excellent
• Shure PG 57 mike - not so good
• Fishman M100 saddle pickup - very "quacky" piezo sound, even with preamps
• Dean Markley Artist pickup - just awful, preamped or not
• K&K Twin Spot - very good - if I can't use a mike and can't afford one of the high end pickups, I'd go with that - a good preamp makes it even better
• Rigel proprietary pickup - also very good - ditto on the preamp

One thing to consider is to use both a mike and a pickup. You use the mike for quality of sound up to feedback levels and fill in with piezo for volume.

[dcoventry]

I have actually started the very article you are looking for (unfinished as of now).

There haven't been any recent innovations with pickups. Most are still based on good old Piezo technology.

Despite this, some do stand out. Maybe they are using $0.79 cent Piezo disks instead of $0.40 cent versions (seriously). I looked into manufacturing some myself.

There is no holy grail. The basic reality is, the better a pickup sounds, the more prone to feedback. This makes sense, if a pickup has a broad frequency range and really replicates the instrument, it is going to feedback.

So a piezo mounted in a bridge saddle, like the Fishman 100 series, will be less prone to feedback, but also amplifying less of the acoustic tone. Something like the LR Baggs Radius is much fuller, but amplifies the top and is prone to handling noise. Especially if not EQed correctly. The K&K twin is a good compromise. It is also amplifying the top, but less sensitive than the LR Baggs. I have installed more of the Radius than anything. Most complaints come from people that are not using a good EQ. Ideally something that has a low cut to get rid of the handling noise. The low G string is just under 200hz. If you can t cut everything below that, you will get a much cleaner signal.

Combined, I have installed hundreds of these.

In the end, the pickup is a percentage of your overall results. The Preamp and sound system will be more important. This needs to be emphasized.... Preamp, EQ and signal chain have a much bigger impact than the pickup.

I gotta say, Robert consistently gives truthful, accurate and honest answers. Thank you again.