Flattops and quality of tone

[pheffernan]

Very helpful reply -- thank you. As to "complexity," what I'm referring to is the fact that sometimes an instrument has a nice sound, but you get tired of it quickly because it's not interesting. So I guess I'm equating "complexity" with a sound that contains enough detail to not be boring. How would you define complexity in a mandolin's sound?

I think that complexity refers to the presence of overtones surrounding the fundamental tone.

Do you think "complexity" of sound is what allows an archtop to be heard in a jam?

No, I think that complexity is often lost in a jam.

I'm trying to decide if there's any reason why a person like myself, who doesn't have any interest in jamming other than maybe casual jamming with friends, would benefit from an archtop.

Of course there's a reason. Archtops are awesome!

[Bill Cameron]

An archtop, with f-holes, whatever the body shape, is going to be louder than a flattop oval because you can string it heavier and play it harder, and the f-holes project the sound without being covered by hands and strings.

The other delineator, unsaid so far in this thread, is whether you are devoted to bluegrass, which essentially demands that you get an archtop, with a strong preference for f-holes, or are you more of a generalist, in which case you can play what you like. I’m a Celtic style player who has preferred a bluegrass-type instrument, because I have an over-developed sense of musical aggression from finding myself the lone mandolinist in a pack of cape breton fiddlers....but I just discovered this and I _want_ one, turns out I am not alone in the universe....https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=50uaDkE_NDo. Note the body is a full 12” wide. sorry, this thread is about you not me ;/=

[Dacnis]

I just discovered this and I _want_ one, turns out I am not alone in the universe....https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=50uaDkE_NDo. Note the body is a full 12” wide. sorry, this thread is about you not me ;/=

Wow. It's the Dreadnought of mandolins -- either that or the person playing it is really tiny.

[Mark Wilson]

I think the flattop sound (ones I've played) has a cool character that goes great with a lot of music. I've heard the terms folks use to describe it but you can't appreciate it til you've spent some time playing one.

If I could afford a mandolin of every flavor I would want another flattop. If I was starting over, with the budget I started with, I would DEFINITELY start on a good flattop

[Bill Cameron]

Heres a very interesting (to the likes of us) and lengthy, discussion of comparative design styles from across the pond, by Nigel Forster, who built the ‘Celtic F’ mando I linked to in my previous post. He’s not terribly keen on flattops. http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/celtic-mandolin/

[bruce.b]

Interesting about complexity. In the guitar world an acoustic archtop is considered to have a more focused, midrange tone, with a strong attack and less sustain than an acoustic flattop guitar. That is why it sounds louder and cuts through better than a flattop. That is my understanding, at least. It’s not something I’ve spent time investigating.

Why do some of you think it’s different for mandolins? I think most people agree that archtop mandolins have a more focused sound than flattops. To also say they have a more complex tone seems like eating your cake and having it too. They are louder because they put their energy into a sharp attack and less sustain. A flattop generally spreads that energy out over a longer period of time and so is less loud.

[peter.coombe]

I have made around 30 flattop mandolins and over 150 archtop mandolins so have a pretty good handle on the differences. It is difficult to put into words, but I would describe the difference as the arch top mandolins have a "finer" quality of sound than the flattops, and tend to feel more "solid" when you play them. I would not say one is better than the other, they are just different. I have made flattop mandolins that have an overall sound quality that is on the same level as my archtops, just different. In terms of volume, the flattops tend to be louder because the soundboard is 20-30% lighter. I would not say one or the other has more or less sustain. This is comparing oval soundhole mandolins. Comparing an oval hole flattop and F hole arch top is apples and oranges, so is not really a valid comparison.

[Bill Cameron]

Wow. It's the Dreadnought of mandolins -- either that or the person playing it is really tiny.

He learned from Sobell, who I believe pioneered the “large-body mandolin”, of similar fatness. I like them a -lot- but as Mr Forster says, they’re like onions not like the American A-style “shallot” (whatever the hell that is). Even Sobell’s soxcalled small-body mandos look pretty big from here.

[pops1]

He learned from Sobell, who I believe pioneered the “large-body mandolin”, of similar fatness. I like them a -lot- but as Mr Forster says, they’re like onions not like the American A-style “shallot” (whatever the hell that is). Even Sobell’s soxcalled small-body mandos look pretty big from here.

A shallot is a type of onion, smaller than an onion. Interesting comparison there.

[bruce.b]

(For this style of setup (using condenser mics), the flat top instruments lacked the mid range penetration that carved instruments inherently have. What’s beautiful about a flat top instrument is its complex and delicate overtones in the top end and its warm and expansive low end – both from the light building which allow the strings to ring with sustain)

A Luke Plum quote from the NK Forster article posted above. The article is really good, IMO. I would like to hear from some bandolim and classical players.

[Dacnis]

He learned from Sobell, who I believe pioneered the “large-body mandolin”, of similar fatness. I like them a -lot- but as Mr Forster says, they’re like onions not like the American A-style “shallot” (whatever the hell that is). Even Sobell’s soxcalled small-body mandos look pretty big from here.

I'd sure like to play one, but they seem to be rare as hen's teeth in the U.S. -- mandos from all those builders, not just Sobell.

[Eric Platt]

I think fatt-dad has it, the sound difference is more to playing style than the instrument. Am finding this out first hand today as my new Big Muddy needs a different approach (and pick choice) than my arch top Gibson A Jr. As to tone, impossible for me to judge as this instrument is way too new, and the strings are way too new. Maybe in 2 to 3 months I'll have a handle on how this particular flat top sounds compared to an arch top. All I can say right now is it's louder. At least from the player's perspective.

[JeffD]

In my experience the only real reason to go for an arch top would be because you seek that iconic bluegrassy tone. Whether you play bluegrass or not, if that is the tone you want, archtops deliver.

I play both arch tops and flat tops, at different times, for different reasons. I find my flat tops, a Big Muddy M-11 and a Weber Aspen II, to have a delightful tone. I still don't entirely get what tone complexity means, but I know I love how these two mandolins sound whenever I pick them up.

My M-11 is all mahogany and has a warmth to it that is particularly attractive. I think it sounds great with a small body Martin mahogany guitar, like an o-18 or oo-18 or such like.

My Aspen II has a lot of sustain. So much that I sometimes have to mute strings to prevent clashing. The tone is very ringy, like a bell to my ear.

I jam with either one often, at old time jams, fiddle tune jams etc. No problems hearing them or being heard. There isn't much they can't do.They excel at old time music, including jam sessions, solo playing, they mic well for an ensemble performance, and they are loud enough to be heard without the microphone.

I would even bring them to a bluegrass jam, except that i am fortunate enough to arch tops that deliver the more bluegrassy creamy Gibsonny tone.

Arch tops often cost more than the flat top of similar quality. Or looked the other way, for the same price, you often get a better mandolin in a flat top.

Entirely my opinion.

[Cliff Seruntine]

I've seen a few flat tops with deeper sound bodies. Anywhere from 2 to 5 inches. How does this alter the sound?

[NursingDaBlues]

The following article was mentioned in the AGF. Thought I'd pass it along.

https://www.premierguitar.com/articl...c_Guitar_Sound

[ollaimh]

the best flat top i have heard is the beaver tail made by terry sawchyn in sasketchewan canada. i like flatiron flat tops as well, and i heard one old gibson plain one that was old and twangy

[derbex]

I have a Hathway flattop and a Flatiron archtop, FWIW the flattop is louder playing melody, which is generally what I do, the archtop has a more 'complex' mid range but a muted top end. Currently they have similar weight strings on, Newtone Heavies on the flattop and D'addario FW74s(?) On the archtop, if anything the Newtone's are heavier, and what is specc'd for the instrument. The Flattop was still louder when it had Savarez Argentines on, which are lighter than the FW74s.

I come and go with the Flatiron, to my mind it sounds best plugged in, it has a piezo pickup, and the complex mid-range doesn't make up for the dull top end. The Hathway is the instrument I use most.

I am not a heavy picker, and I use a small, pointy plectrum.

[peter.coombe]

In my experience the only real reason to go for an arch top would be because you seek that iconic bluegrassy tone. Whether you play bluegrass or not, if that is the tone you want, archtops deliver.

Well you will only get the "bluegrassy" tone from an archtop F sound hole mandolin. There are plenty of archtop oval hole mandolins that have heaps of sustain and ringy tone. I make them, and the more sustain and ring they have the better I like them. They are just at home in the same situations as a flattop mandolin is at home, but do have a "finer" sound quality.

Some soundclips I have just recorded. Exactly the same recording setup for both.

Flattop mandolin
http://petercoombe.com/Classical_Fla..._Inchiquin.mp3

http://petercoombe.com/Classical_Fla...d/Hornpipe.mp3

Archtop oval hole mandolin
http://petercoombe.com/Custom_sound/Lord_Inchiquin.mp3

http://petercoombe.com/Custom_sound/Hornpipe.mp3

[Dacnis]

Some soundclips I have just recorded. Exactly the same recording setup for both.

They sound very similar to me. What difference there is I would have guessed could be due to how they are played, if I didn't know otherwise. To the extent I can hear a difference, I'd describe the archtop as more bold, focused and ringing.

[Cliff Seruntine]

An archtop, with f-holes, whatever the body shape, is going to be louder than a flattop oval because you can string it heavier and play it harder, and the f-holes project the sound without being covered by hands and strings.

The other delineator, unsaid so far in this thread, is whether you are devoted to bluegrass, which essentially demands that you get an archtop, with a strong preference for f-holes, or are you more of a generalist, in which case you can play what you like. I’m a Celtic style player who has preferred a bluegrass-type instrument, because I have an over-developed sense of musical aggression from finding myself the lone mandolinist in a pack of cape breton fiddlers....but I just discovered this and I _want_ one, turns out I am not alone in the universe....https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=50uaDkE_NDo. Note the body is a full 12” wide. sorry, this thread is about you not me ;/=

I also am a fan of the Forsters, though I've wondered if they are perhaps too big. Over large instruments will lose something from the lighter strings.

But I can sympathize, also be a player among NS Celtic musicians. Last Sunday at our session: 5 fiddles and me on the mandolin.

[Cliff Seruntine]

They sound very similar to me. What difference there is I would have guessed could be due to how they are played, if I didn't know otherwise. To the extent I can hear a difference, I'd describe the archtop as more bold, focused and ringing.

I have to agree. They sound almost the same to me, too. As to focus and boldness, it could well be an artifact of recording. But, as always, the only way to know for sure is to hear them in person.

[derbex]

The sounded pretty similar to me too, even through phones, and, even switching between tracks I would be hard pressed to say which one I preferred.

[bruce.b]

Hi Peter, thank you for the recordings. They do sound a lot alike to me, and your description of a finer quality of sound fits what I hear. I slightly prefer the archtop tone in those recordings.

[Eric Platt]

I liked them both, but the one identified as a flat top had a bit more front edge to the note, IMO. It sounds more immediate, if that makes sense. Also the sound from treble to bass seems different.
Now, that also is the difference I hear comparing my Big Muddy to my Gibson. So it may show inherent bias on my part.
Overall, I still think I could hear a difference.

[DavidKOS]

Well you will only get the "bluegrassy" tone from an archtop F sound hole mandolin. There are plenty of archtop oval hole mandolins that have heaps of sustain and ringy tone. I make them, and the more sustain and ring they have the better I like them. They are just at home in the same situations as a flattop mandolin is at home, but do have a "finer" sound quality.

I liked them both, but the one identified as a flat top had a bit more front edge to the note, IMO. It sounds more immediate, if that makes sense. Also the sound from treble to bass seems different.
.

I definitely preferred the tone of the flat top to the F hole. It seemed to have more character overall and sounded a bit more like what I want t amandolin to sound like.