Getting rather discouraged

[Ruckmanite]

Well I have been playing the mando for about 3 years. Have not taken lessons, cannot afford it, just been self taught, and felt like I was making good progress. Well I was never able to make chop chords, and I was over at a friend while she was at a music lesson and her teacher handed me his mando and said "give us some chops." Well when I told him I could not make that shape and had given up on makign the chord shape, he came over and showed me a few things and I realize I have been holding the mando somewhat incorrectly all along. What I have been doing wrong is resting the neck all the way back in my hand up against the palm, (I don't think I am describing this very good) basically there is not a gap ,between my thumb and the mando, therefore I do not have enough reach for my fingers to make the standard G chop.

So I have started out to try to play more correctly. Well the first problem was my strap, it was not supporting the mando correctly where the instrument would fall correctly and I was having to support it with my hand. Tried to alter my strap for it to hang on me correctly, but it still isn't right. Well I'm trying to hold it correctly and play now, but it is just killing my hand. I mean my hand just aches now. I can make it thru maybe 2 or 3 songs when my wife and I practice each night but that's it.

Anyway, not really looking for help, just really really discouraged in my playing, but any help is certainly received with gladness if anyone has some good suggestions, just venting I guess to you guys that might understand.

[Mike Stewart]

Are you talking about how the headstock wants to point toward the floor? If that's the case, try this: loop a rubber band around your belt or a belt loop of your pants (probably a little toward your right hip). Take the loose end of that rubber band and hook it on the end pin of the mandolin. Now the mandolin stays in the correct position.

[MikeZito]

First and foremost, while 'lessons' and 'chopping' are certainly useful, they are not mandatory for playing the mandolin; (unless you want to play bluegrass, then learning to chop will be a necessity). I only had about 5 or 6 formal 'lessons' in my early years of playing and one of the key things that I learned was how to properly position my left hand behind the neck of the instrument for better technique. Like you, I found it quite unnatural and uncomfortable for the first couple of days - but eventually good old muscle memory kicked into gear, and it has been no problem, ever since then. Although some will argue against me, I believe that there is really no 'proper' strap position for holding an instrument; it is strictly a matter of personal preference. I have seen guys with instruments slung down at their thighs, others with it firmly secured against their chest - and just about every point in between . . . just find a position that is comfortable for you, and go with it. All in all, try not to let discouragement get in the way of your continuing to practice and improve. I know that personally I often get discouraged at my inability to do certain things, but most of the time I find that perseverance pays off in the end. Keep at it!

[Randi Gormley]

If your hand hurts so much you can't play your instrument, you're doing something wrong. (and isn't that encouraging?) -- creating callouses hurts, of course, but simply holding the instrument and playing shouldn't force you to give it up after 2 songs.

You've probably seen that Mike Marshall Youtube clip on holding the mandolin -- I'd suggest giving it another look. I had to alter the way I hold my mandolin to avoid carpal tunnel numbness and shooting pains from osteoarthritis, but as long as I give myself time enough between practice (like a day), even with those issues, I can still play mandolin for two or three hours at a time if needed. I'll admit to not playing chords. It's not necessary for the kind of music I play. But even so, the kind of pain you're describing isn't right.

Could you go back to the teacher you met and have him show you again how to hold the instrument correctly? Maybe take some photos with your phone/camera so you can copy it exactly? I think Pete Martin also has advice on ergonomics and holding the mandolin. Yes, it's so discouraging to have to start over, but if you have to do it, you may as well take it slowly and make absolutely sure you're doing it right.

[pops1]

You can do a very nice G chop chord without the stretch. G string 4th fret, D string 5th fret, A string 2ond fret, and mute the E string. I like the sound of this much better and it is moveable just like the harder one. I can play either, but use this on the rare occasion I want a chop.

[Tobin]

This music teacher steered you in the right direction on hand position. That gap is a big indicator of correct form, and the wrist needs to stay fairly straight. Collapsing the palm of the hand against the neck is a no-no. The mandolin neck should be held similar to a violin hold, for best ergonomic success.

I'm a bit confused by your mention of the strap and hand pain in the same paragraph. Did you mean to imply that your strap issue is causing hand pain?

The strap is only one part of the equation when it comes to supporting the mandolin. Your right (picking) arm should be the other part of the support system. While the strap helps hold the neck end up, the forearm holds the heel end in position. You should not have to be holding the neck up with your left (fretting) hand. Your fretting hand needs to be free to slide up the neck for position shifts, and should be gently cradling the neck between the side of your forefinger joint and the side of your thumb. Tension there should only be tight enough to resist the pressure from your fretting fingers. If you're getting cramps in that hand, you need to loosen up. This may resolve itself over time, once your body has learned to adjust to the new muscle use in that position. Give it time, and work on it in short durations for now.

[MediumMando5722]

You've probably seen that Mike Marshall Youtube clip on holding the mandolin...

Exactly. Watch Mike's videos until your eyes bleed. He spells out all you need to know about all aspects of posture in explicit detail.

[Mandoplumb]

The OP's problem is not that he can't make a chop chord, no one could nesting the neck as I'm visualizing his description. His problem was and still is holding the mandolin incorrectly. Ruckmanite, if your hand is hurting from the form you are using something is wrong.you need to get with someone who knows proper form and correct it. Yes you will Haney to unlearn the incorrect and learn the correct. If you don't know anyone that plays mandolin go see a band that has one, strike up a conversation with him and I'll bet he will show you. I have answered questions similar many times after a performance. If I can help some one on their mandolin journey I am more than ready, as are most players.

[JeffD]

You've probably seen that Mike Marshall Youtube clip on holding the mandolin.

If not, here it is.

I have found, (for me) that most every time I reach a plateau and can't seem to get any further, that correcting some fundamental standard mandolin technique has been the problem. Be it holding the mandolin, holding the pick, fretting hand position, picking hand position, whatever.

Sometimes the only consolation is that I will not live long enough to make every mistake possible.

[sbhikes]

Been playing for 10 years with no lessons and no chords. I'm only now sort of figuring out chords on my own. Turns out I was sort of playing them all along, just took a while before I noticed it. I play old-time, not bluegrass, so I think it's a more forgiving genre.

My hands are fairly small. I am sure I can't form some full chords. I watch others play the mandolin and their fingers are already laid out in the positions to touch the strings with all 4 fingers and they just sort of stay there in position. Well, I simply cannot lay my fingers out like that at all. Only 3 at a time will work.

Anyway, don't get discouraged. Learn something new and keep on learning. You can go fast, or slow in the learning. Doesn't matter so long as it's fun for you.

[Billy Packard]

I've always liked to attach the strap to tuner for the very top A string. It's out of the way and the mandolin is level.

With your left hand, put the tip of your first finger and the tip of your thumb together like the old fashioned 'OK' sign. That's the point of power. I don't touch the neck of the mandolin except with the thumb under the neck and the fingertips on the fretboard.

As mentioned above be sure to keep the wrist straight. Don't bend it because all of the tendons go over the wrist and when you bend your wrist it puts way more tension on them. This could be why you've been in such pain.

Don't feel bad about starting over, it happens sometimes. At one point I had to quit altogether so my right elbow could heal. My incorrect right hand technique way overstressed the elbow.

Billy

billypackardmandolin.com

[allenhopkins]

How hard are you squeezing the neck when making "chop" chords? There's a temptation to hold on 'way too tight, then release to damp the chord. That can make your fretting had really sore.

And -- while we all want to make "proper" four-string closed chords for "chopping," there's a sneaky little secret that one can sometimes get away with three strings -- even two -- if you don't hit the un-fretted strings. It's the on-the-off-beat timing and the quick dampening that produces the percussive effect. (Don't tell anyone, but I've been "faking" chopping for years, on and off, depending on the key.) Less strain on the hand.

You should be able to take the fretting hand completely off the mandolin, but with the picking hand in normal position, and have the instrument hang in playing position, or close. Experiment with where you hook the "top" end of the strap, and whether you have it go over just one shoulder, or around the back of your neck as well. Different mandolins may have different balances, but if you try several arrangements, you might just hit the one that works for you.

[Louise NM]

Remember that even a small adjustment in playing posture or hand position affects everything else in that hand, wrist, elbow, and even shoulder. You have spent three years becoming accustomed to the old way: it will take more than a few days for the new way to feel right and for your body to readjust. Make sure you're not tensing your hand, and try stopping and shaking it out every few minutes. By any chance are you overcompensating and bending your wrist the opposite way? That will put you in a whole world of hurt too.

If I understand what you are saying, you have been supporting the neck with what violin teachers refer to as a "pizza hand"—visualize the angle of a waitress's wrist as she balances the pizza pan on an open palm. This does make it harder to get fingers, especially your third and fourth, over to the G strings.

Is there a place you can go to try a couple of different straps? If you don't think yours is doing what you need it to do, a different one might be in order.

The change you are working on will free up your left hand. It'll be great, once you get through the crummy part.

[Bertram Henze]

One short video of your hand while playing could shortcut pages of discussion. At least a few photos.

It's worth the effort, because you may be just a minor correction away from hours of relaxed playing.

[Ruckmanite]

WOW! such great responses. Just love this community. First I should explain that I am a rather heavy set mando player . I have watched Mike Marshall and Pet Martin's videos on posture and how to hold the mandolin and those are pretty much what I am trying to go by. I will say Mike Marshall's hunkered over approach in posture is almost impossible for a person of my size lol, which is why I reckon I need my strap to hold the darn thing in the right place lol. I bought a guitar foot rest to prop my left foot up on. After playing last night I can say where the discomfort is, it is the area below my index finger where the mando pretty much rests. I am making the violin grip of the mando and have the space for between thumb and palm, and basically I am guessing from reaching for the frets the mando is putting pressure on that area making the discomfort. I should also add, my hand is not hurting when I'm trying to chop, it hurts when I play at all, now that I am trying to hold the mando correctly lol. I will try to post a vid as soon as possible.

[Tobin]

After playing last night I can say where the discomfort is, it is the area below my index finger where the mando pretty much rests. I am making the violin grip of the mando and have the space for between thumb and palm, and basically I am guessing from reaching for the frets the mando is putting pressure on that area making the discomfort.

So it's not a muscle/nerve or other internal pain, right? It's just an external discomfort where the side of your first finger comes over the nut area?

It's common to have some soreness or tenderness there when you are first getting used to playing like that. Some fiddlers actually get a big callus in that area (remember, this is the same as a violin/fiddle hold). Take a look at your mandolin and make sure there aren't any sharp corners or obvious pressure points there. But aside from that, I consider it just part of toughening up the hand, like building fingertip calluses. Getting that forefinger over the edge requires some contact and slight chafing. It's just part of the deal.

[Charlie Bernstein]

The OP's problem is not that he can't make a chop chord, no one could nesting the neck as I'm visualizing his description. His problem was and still is holding the mandolin incorrectly. . . .

Yeah, that's why the Mike Marshall video is crucial.

As another learner, I can relate. When I hold the mando like a guitar (that's what it sounds like Ruckmanite does, whether he plays guitar or not), my left hand and most of my left arm go numb is just a few minutes.

But when I remember to hold the mando away from my palm and angle the headstock higher, the numbness goes away immediately. (The mando doesn't feel very secure that way, so still I back-slide into palming a lot - though I'm getting better.)

And Mike Z. had another good tip above: Just because other players chop (or chord or tremolo or hammer or pull off or slide or cross-pick), it doesn't mean we all have to. We all have the most fun when we're figuring out what works for us. That's where style comes from.

[Mark Wilson]

My left hand bothered me with some discomfort and occasional numbness starting out. It went away after a few months. Study mandolin videos on YT to get your technique as sound as you can, playing with as light a touch as possible until your hands get used to being in unfamiliar positions.

And if at all possible - take at least one lesson early on to let a trained eye check out your technique. It was the best decision I made and looking back I waited too long.

Happy picking - it will sort out if you stay on it

[meado]

If you really want to get discouraged, just go to a Chris Thile concert.

You'll never feel worthy enough to play again!

[jtv]

Looking at the Mike Marshall video again and having some of the same problems as OP, how do you avoid collapsing your palm against the neck when playing chop chords? I can get my pinky up there just fine, but when I do my hand seems to be hugging the neck tightly. Is it just a matter of stretching my hand more or is there something technique-wise that can help?

[Tobin]

Looking at the Mike Marshall video again and having some of the same problems as OP, how do you avoid collapsing your palm against the neck when playing chop chords? I can get my pinky up there just fine, but when I do my hand seems to be hugging the neck tightly. Is it just a matter of stretching my hand more or is there something technique-wise that can help?

It's just a matter of taking the right approach. Collapsing the palm, for whatever reason, seems to be what some people will naturally do when they don't know any better, and then it becomes locked in to their style. But if you think about it, that pinky reach works a whole lot better with a straight wrist than with your wrist bent backwards. Try it with your "air mandolin" (no actual mandolin needed for this). Make the chop chord shape with your fingers, and see how the reach changes with a straight wrist versus backwards-bent wrist.

[Kalasinar]

I feel you, totally understand. I went through the same incorrect grip for a while when I started out, and the pain was a warning sign I was doing something wrong. It took a bit of researching on here and youtube to figure out how to position my left hand, wrist and arm correctly... I felt a little silly for a while, wondering why I could not get it right. I found the Mike Marshall video useful, as well as this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqBZyLagAIk

I also had to make note of how hard I was fretting, as I discovered I was also suffering with 'gorilla grip', something common for people like me who have never played a stringed/fretted instrument before. Took a bit of a conscious effort there to ease up on the pressure I was applying, and yes, all my mandolins are setup nicely so it was definitely me and not high action etc.

[Caleb]

Don't get discouraged: that takes all the fun out of playing music.

My motto: If you're having fun, you win. End of story.

[fatt-dad]

Here's how I tie my strap to the peghead.

Keep working on the chop chord. Changing the grip is the correct thing to do.

But, have fun too! I love playing fiddle tunes. Good practice and catchy melodies.

f-d

[Br1ck]

I have small hands. Finally, I told myself, an instrument where small hands aren't a detriment. Then I learned the G chop chord was important. Geez. A year in and I can just about do it. A chop is no problem, just a matter of time.