In Defense of F-Styles

[MikeEdgerton]

It comes down to how the question is asked. If someone asks what's the best F style mandolin they can get for under $500.00 the answer should be what one thinks the best F style mandolin they know of for under $500.00. If they say I have $500.00 and I want to buy a mandolin then the answer might be that you can get more bang for the buck with an A style. This is actually a perfect example of the Allen Hopkins Ham Sandwich Conundrum.

[mandroid]

At $XXX, the instrument is probably Asian, so the added labor cost to make those extra blocks of wood look good , is low.

Once you get to $XXXX+, then there is time to pay attention to the sound as well as the appearance factors..

[NursingDaBlues]

For many, it's the perceived image that burns deepest.

Of the top performers, who plays F-style?
Monroe, Burns, Grisman, Thile, Marshall, Hull, Brock, Statman, Gardner, etc.

Of the top performers, who plays A-style?
O’Brien, Walsh, and surely others

I guess it depends on who a person is exposed to and who he/she wants to emulate.

[billkilpatrick]

Regardless of logic, most players that love the look of the F, end up with one. They may buy the A, but they will not be satisfied for long and an F comes shortly after. Often times the F, is not really an upgrade in quality. Something similar to the original A will be purchased.

I see this a lot with my customers.

I'd say this is right. It's more than a "Chevy vs. Ford" thing. I play my Mid-Missouri M4 a lot but the scroll is magic.

[Br1ck]

I was firmly in the bang for your buck A camp, that is, until I bought the obnoxiously beaten to death in other threads Michael Kelly 199.00 mandolin. Bought it because it was 199.00, not because it was an F. As soon as I got it, I was hooked on them. The problem for me is the cost on my retirement budget, and if I were to buy a used F, it would probably cost me at least $2500. Then I'd have another dilemma because that would get me a very clean vintage Gibson A4.

I've already started selling off gear I accumulated in my rock band days, and I'll have a cash box sufficient to do one of the above. For now the MK will do. The F style is one of the all time pleasing designs.

[Cecily_Mandoliner]

I like a mandolin that sounds nice, feels good in my hands and lap, and has a finish (color, shape, texture) that is aesthetically pleasing to me at the time. And, my budget can handle it.
When I got my second mandolin, the Washburn, it was used, so that saved me a bunch of $, but what my parameters were at the time were a mandolin that wasn't made of pressed wood, but was a solid carved top. And, that one had it, and it happened to be an F-style, and it sounded nicer than my starter instrument (a Fender). It certainly fits in the lap a different way than an A-style, and on some instruments, the point poke right into my leg, and others, hook the curve just the right way. The scroll is cool to me, but I also love symmetry, so the A-style is all right by me as well. I think the 2-points are cute, but my hubby thinks they look funny. Beauty in the eye of the beholder...
When I got my Weber, my parameter was super simple: I'd heard so much about the Weber, so I wanted to try one, nearly any shape besides the Gallatin (I like binding), and they don't show up very often in the local shops. This one appeared, and I loved the sound of it immediately.

[foldedpath]

How many fiddlers would buy a violin without the decorative scroll at the end of their instrument? Maybe mandolins just haven't been around long enough for a similar preference to evolve, and be set in stone.


A guitar made 300 years ago by Antonio Stradivarius (among others) doesn't look much like today's acoustic guitars, but there are still a few points in common like the soundhole rosette. Purely decorative, but an acoustic guitar doesn't look right without one.

Give it 300 years, and maybe the only mandolins still being made (if any instruments are still being made and played by our Robot overlords), will be the "classic" F-style. And nobody will think twice about how odd it looks, just like nobody thinks about why fiddles have that funny scroll at the end.

[JeffD]

It comes down to how the question is asked. If someone asks what's the best F style mandolin they can get for under $500.00 the answer should be what one thinks the best F style mandolin they know of for under $500.00. If they say I have $500.00 and I want to buy a mandolin then the answer might be that you can get more bang for the buck with an A style.

I don't know. I agree in principle, but what concerns me is would the questioner be asking the same question if aware of the options. I often feel like someone wants and F because that is all they know. Or an arch top. Has anything else been considered.

Its not meant to be a critique of the original question, like: "you asked the wrong question, here is what you should have asked." I don't mean that at all. I am just trying to increase awareness and let the person know of things they may not have thought of that might change the direction they think they want to go.

Gotta find better wording I suppose, to not commit a "ham sandwich", OTO it seems irresponsible to just narrowly answer the question as posed.

[Canoedad]

JeffD, seems you were saying, "you don't know what you don't know."

Yesterday I was looking for the best price on a steering rack for a Toyota Sienna. Someone could have pointed me in that direction. But I'm grateful to the guy who made me realize I didn't actually need one.

[Jim Garber]

I have never been one who preferred looks to tone and playability. I picked out my first Gibson from a wall of them at Mandolin Brothers circa 1977 and ended up with a 1919 whitefaced A3, in some respects one of the less-cool mandolins that were available in my price-range. OTOH it was a very nice sounding one to my ears and I put a lot of mileage on that one.

I have owned a few f-styles over the years but if they didn't feel right to my ears I was willing to say goodbye when the time is right. However, there is no denying on my part that aesthetics do have a role in all of this, whether it is cool to have those scrolls and points or play the same bowlback that your classical hero plays —I have certainly fallen into that. So, I say go with what drives you, gets you wanting to play that mandolin and makes you take it out even to just admire its curves and looks.

[billkilpatrick]

... So, I say go with what drives you, gets you wanting to play that mandolin and makes you take it out even to just admire its curves and looks.

I do ... I hope I'm not telling on myself here but I often sit in front of the TV - absolutely aghast at the evening news - rubbing my mandolin with something soft and fluffy, trying to re-connect with the good, the true and the beautiful.

[Bill Cameron]

Boy howdy its hard to get a good feud going around here.
I was just thinking that when I bought my first mando in the late 70's, you could get a good Japanese-made F5 copy for $200, and thats what I got. At that time an entry-level A could be had for maybe $100 but I dont think theres any question that the value purchase was those Japanese F's. It says a lot about the development of mando-luthiery since then that every niche is filled more or less logically now. I'm looking forward to my next A....which, once I get the nerve up, will be some kind of dream instrument...

[Larry Simonson]

Many who ask the question posed by the OP are early into their mandolin experience and will soon discover MAS and want a "better" axe so one should consider resale issues in the choice of A vs, F. Perhaps the F might be a better value?

[Br1ck]

I'll bet that if someone out of the blue decided to play mandolin, they would walk into a store, 99 out of a hundred, and look for the F type not knowing alternatives.

Years ago I was noodling in Gryphon, and two ladies came up to me and asked if I would play the D 28 they were holding. They were beginners and just wanted to hear someone play it. I asked them why they were interested in a D 28, and it was basically because that was what many they knew told them was the best guitar. I noodled around on it, then gave them a basic primer on various other shapes, put an OM into their hands and had them play it. After asking me if a Martin was too good for a beginner, I told them no, you should buy the best you could afford, they walked out with the D 28.

Two months later, I ran into them again. They were going to buy an OM. I in my superior I told you so voice said, D 28 too uncomfortable, is it? No, they decided they needed one of each.

So I say, get a really good example of each kind that will provide two different tonalities.

[DataNick]

...The problem for me is the cost on my retirement budget, and if I were to buy a used F, it would probably cost me at least $2500...

That is a perception that is not true in the used market. I see good looking USA made F styles from time to time in the Classifieds for as low as $1000...and if you want to buy new, Kentucky and JBovier both offer new F5s that are well below $2500.

[MediumMando5722]

I say this a lot, but my Eastman MD315 was $300 used. It sounds and plays great. If I never get another, I'll be happy with it. I was saving for a Rover RM50, so the Eastman was far greater than I was expecting to get the first time out. If I do upgrade, I'll be watching for a steal on a Collings MT or a Weber Gallatan. If I had $2500, I'd check out Crooks Mandolins.

Overall, I prefer F models, but if I'd gotten an MD305 rather than the 315, I'm sure I'd be singing its praises.

[Austin Bob]

I personally don't think anyone needs to defend his/her choice in mandolins. I'm a big believer in being tight as hell about most things, but treating myself lavishly on a few items I feel passionate about.

Music is a passion of mine, and I can only imagine the void if I didn't play. I am extremely fortunate in that I have a small collection of very nice instruments, one of which is a Gibson F5 that I dreamed of owning for 25+ years before I finally pulled the trigger. My only regret is having waited so long, but my oval A served me well.

[Petrus]

I like aesthetic appeal in addition to sound also but I prefer the A style in this regard, not it's not just dedicated F-heads who are aesthetically oriented. There are other aesthetic issues, notably wood color and grain, and quality of hardware, that are just as important on an A style.

I've owned a lot of mandoli over the few years I've been learning about them and the mix (since I can only afford low-end models so far) has been about 80% in favor of A-style. I find that the F style scroll looks really neat when viewed face-on, but when holding the instrument in playing position all you see looking down is a sort of big lump of wood that sticks out beyond the body of the instrument and doesn't help your ability to see what you're doing that much.

That said, I really like those old oval-hole three-pointers and I like the F-style peghead. I almost bought that Washburn cheapie that has the A-style oval hole body with an F-style peghead.

[sblock]

I am of the opinion that F-style mandolins really do not require an elaborate defense of any kind! Those of us who like them, like them. We usually pay extra to get them, in fact. And the independent luthiers who make them frequently make more profit from them, so they are motivated to produce them. Furthermore, they tend to make those products that sell, or they go out of business. There has never been some "international mandolin cartel" pushing one style over another. No monopolies: it's just supply and demand, and the free market decides. For now, the F's are doing just fine, thank you, and are in no danger of extinction. No defense needed.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I like both, & play both styles with no problems at all & both have their own beauty,
Ivan

[mee]

If a person has their heart set on an F style and inquires about it then that is what they want to know about. I don't believe "new to mandolin" people automatically assume F-style. If they are not aware of the different ones then they would not specifically state they want info on and F style. When I first thought about wanting a mandolin I was given an A style and I didn't really know much about the existence of the F style. Once I started paying attention to what was out there and I was ready to get better mandolin, I set my heart on the F style and searched for one I could afford that wasn't junk.

[Nick Gellie]

I am of the opinion that F-style mandolins really do not require an elaborate defense of any kind! Those of us who like them, like them. We usually pay extra to get them, in fact. And the independent luthiers who make them frequently make more profit from them, so they are motivated to produce them. Furthermore, they tend to make those products that sell, or they go out of business. There has never been some "international mandolin cartel" pushing one style over another. No monopolies: it's just supply and demand, and the free market decides. For now, the F's are doing just fine, thank you, and are in no danger of extinction. No defense needed.

+1. It is about individual preferences and connections to their music and to the world at large.

[sbhikes]

I recently bought an F-style. I have always preferred the A style.

I also play a different instrument, something called a handpan. These are hand-made instruments, made by hammering sheet metal with hammers. They come in all different scales (major, minor, modal and limited number of notes). Some sound like angels but look like woks and others sound like garbage lids and look like works of art and some look the way they sound. They're very expensive, so the only way to make sure you don't get ripped off and you get something you like is you have to *listen* to it. Nothing else matters as much as how it sounds. My handpan looks sort of half-completed but it sounds like the angels at the Sistine chapel.

Learning from the handpan, when I went to pick out a mandolin, I went to a store and played them all until I narrowed it down to just a few. Then I had someone play those few for me so I could hear them as an observer. I ended up with an F-style, which isn't what I went in looking for. I'm very happy. It sounds awesome. When I'm playing, I barely notice what it looks like. Music is sound, sound matters most.

That's not to say that F-styles sound better than A-styles. My friend's A-style sounds even better than mine, but I didn't find an A-style like that.

[MontanaMatt]

While reading this thread, and thinking about the argument of getting the best cheap mandolin, or if I only have $xxx to spend, I was struck by how much money the fancy guns cost at the gun store, and the sets of nice golf clubs. I also watched a YouTube video of some truck mud bog event full of Custom big trucks. With few exceptions, in comparison, all mandolins are cheap. Real violin prices would make most people's toes curl. There is a ski hill near me, and all winter thousands of people are riding on thousands of dollars for modified sledding fun. New mountain bikes are over $5k. Yet there are probably only a few dozen nice mandolins in my city.

In the vein of tax season, I suggest, find a way to make some money playing, file as a self employed musician, buy extravagant music toys, and take the tax write offs

[MikeZito]

I REALLY like Matt's idea of buying extravagant music toys . . . I'm not sure that I could get away with being a self-employed musician and writing them off on my taxes - but I still like buying extravagant music toys as much as possible!