Fiddle players and mandolin.

[Jess L.]

So why don't you want to suck at banjo?

Insufficient challenge. Yes I know that could be interpreted either way, (1) too easy to play good or (2) too easy to suck at it... choose whichever one seems best depending on whether or not one likes banjo...

Full disclosure: banjo player here (example). And former fiddler etc.

[Tobin]

Insufficient challenge.

LOL. Learning to play clawhammer banjo was the toughest weekend I've had in years!

[Bob Buckingham]

Several decades ago I bought a Lyon and Healy mandolin from an old fiddler thinking since I played guitar and fiddle the mandolin would be a good choice. Well, after mastering those 4 finger chords it got a lot better, but the old, covered tuning machines almost required a wrench to to turn them. Yes mandolin and fiddle do work well together for the player. Different in important ways but the feed each other.

[CHASAX]

Different in important ways but the feed each other.

Yes, they do complement each other. I enjoy them both.

[Charlieshafer]

I started taking fiddle lessons in the Fall. I have to say, it's been an education. I can understand how some folks would bail right away, but I think I've gotten to the point where I feel like I am a decent enough player to go into the local shop here and play some fiddles. Still got a ways to go, but it's a process.

While the left hand is willing, the right hand has a long way to go wielding that stick.

Hey Mary, Are you taking from Lauren Rioux?

[Br1ck]

So why don't you want to suck at banjo?

OH, but I DO! And accordion too.

[Seter]

This thread is partly responsible for egging me on to buy an electric violin, we'll see how it goes. Worst comes to worst I figure it'll be handy for making strange noises for recording purposes.

[Jess L.]

LOL. Learning to play clawhammer banjo was the toughest weekend I've had in years!

Lol. The toughie is the "drop-thumb", to do it in a way that sounds good, that is. Too many beginners make the mistake of flailing their thumb around like a guitar player and it usually sounds like crap when they do that because the timing is off. Thumb needs to be somewhat more rigid instead. This does not come natural to many people (it didn't for me, I had to work at it, even though I had not acquired any 'guitar' habits since I'd never played guitar at that point). So instead of the thumb 'plucking' the string as in guitar, it more or less just sort of rides on the string and causes the string to sound when the hand is moved upwards... sort of. Anyway...

I agree with you that in other respects, it's relatively non-difficult to *start* playing clawhammer banjo...

In a way, clawhammer is kinda/sorta like hammered dulcimer in that it's easy to make some agreeable noises right from the start -- unlike fiddle.

But I have to respectfully disagree about one thing, it takes more than a weekend to achieve the finesse and total awesomeness of players like old master Wade Ward:


(or direct link)

And this young fellow Adam Hurt does alright too, although a different style of clawhammer and different type of banjo -- nylon strings, for one thing, also a different shape.

The main takeway is that (IMO, FWIW, YMMV etc) the trick to good clawhammer sound is knowing *what* to play (and what to leave out), rather than having to acquire a high level of technical proficiency as far as *how* to physically play it.

OH, but I DO! And accordion too.

Cool! Nothing wrong with any of those. It's all in the playing, and type of accordian (such as "button accordian" vs keyboard). Accordian can be like what the general public usually thinks of or it can be something entirely different like Cajun accordian with fiddles:


(or direct link)

Or even Spanish traditional Basque accordian and fiddles, like in this video from Fiddle Tunes Festival in Port Townsend WA US:


(or direct link)

Good toe-tapping dance music, all of it.

[Tobin]

Lol. The toughie is the "drop-thumb", to do it in a way that sounds good, that is. Too many beginners make the mistake of flailing their thumb around like a guitar player and it usually sounds like crap when they do that because the timing is off. Thumb needs to be somewhat more rigid instead. This does not come natural to many people (it didn't for me, I had to work at it, even though I had not acquired any 'guitar' habits since I'd never played guitar at that point). So instead of the thumb 'plucking' the string as in guitar, it more or less just sort of rides on the string and causes the string to sound when the hand is moved upwards... sort of. Anyway...

I agree with you that in other respects, it's relatively non-difficult to *start* playing clawhammer banjo...

Absolutely. I was kidding, obviously, with the weekend crack. Clawhammer banjo is fairly easy to get started on, but like any style of music, there's a lot of nuance there that takes some time to perfect. I took the advice of some good clawhammer players and started drop-thumbing from the start, instead of focusing solely on bum-ditty. And there are so many great banjo players to emulate, each with their own particular style! Wade Ward is one that I have studied and admire greatly. I've only been playing clawhammer for about a year and a half, and while I feel like I can handle almost any tune or style, I realize that I have a long way to go to master the nuance and feel of certain players.

Lately I've been trying to figure out Walt Koken's style. It absolutely baffles me.

[varmonter]

About 40 years ago i was a bartender at a local swill hole. A fellow walked in with a fiddle in a
Nice Hsc and asked if i knew anyone who wanted
To buy it.he was asking 75 dollars..we settled on
35 . I thought the nice hard case was worth that.
Being a mandolin player i thought cool.should
Be a breeze to learn...after a few attempts i could
Not get beyond the killing a cat sound and gave
It up. Now that i am more mature and retired
I am thinking of taking a few lessons.i still have
The fiddle.it has a nice maple figure to the back.
So i think its a decent inst. A good setup and
Some lessons in my future.. perhaps i can get
Beyond the choking cat phase.

[catmandu2]

So why don't you want to suck at banjo?

OH, but I DO! And accordion too.

It's a sickness. You'll wind up sitting around spinning French tunes 'round your ennui, family will look at you askance, you'll acquire strange obsessions, Rilke, other things. I started playing Satie (on acc) and, well...

[Jim Garber]

About 40 years ago i was a bartender at a local swill hole. A fellow walked in with a fiddle in a
Nice Hsc and asked if i knew anyone who wanted
To buy it.he was asking 75 dollars..we settled on
35 . I thought the nice hard case was worth that.
Being a mandolin player i thought cool.should
Be a breeze to learn...after a few attempts i could
Not get beyond the killing a cat sound and gave
It up. Now that i am more mature and retired
I am thinking of taking a few lessons.i still have
The fiddle.it has a nice maple figure to the back.
So i think its a decent inst. A good setup and
Some lessons in my future.. perhaps i can get
Beyond the choking cat phase.

I know some great fiddlers up in VT. Pete Sutherland is one up north, near Burlington. I know he teaches at some festivals and camps. There are also folks down state as well.

[Jess L.]

I know some great fiddlers up in VT. Pete Sutherland is one up north, near Burlington. I know he teaches at some festivals and camps. There are also folks down state as well.

Awesome video, thanks for posting that, gives me goosebumps! (in a good way). Wonderful!

[mee]

I went from fiddle to mandolin and had a time with learning to strum and chop. A couple of my fiddleing friends pick up my mandolin and pluck out the melody but have never been able to strum. But then I know some like my hubby that can learn to play any instrument within 5 minutes of picking it up.

[soliver]

Both my wife and 8yo (2nd) daughter are beginner violinists. My wife was classically trained as a kid and has picked it back up, whilst my daughter has been playing for several years, first trained by a fiddle player and now by a classical violinist. My daughter learned several fiddle tunes from her first teacher and if she could fret my Mandolin better, she'd do pretty well. She picked out the more notey version of Old Joe Clark she knew pretty well with my help... I think that down the road she may be able to do quite well. Though Wifey shows little interest.

[Steve Ostrander]

I borrowed a fiddle from a friend and tried it a couple years ago. It sounded like a cat fight.

[Dave Bradford]

I started as a kid with violin lessons for three years and then abandoned it until I was in my early twenties and haven't stopped playing it since. I picked up the mandolin about twenty years later and spent more time learning to play it, but now play each about equally. One thing that I found very useful when playing out is this String Swing hanger that holds both instruments, and attaches easily to a mic stand.

https://www.stringswing.com/product/...ic-music-stand

[Mandobar]

Hey Mary, Are you taking from Lauren Rioux?

No, Liz Faiella. I don't know Lauren. Lots of fiddlers around these parts, including Liz Knowles. I am also signed up for the Peghead Nation lessons with Chad Manning. I aspire to be good enough to justify buying a fiddle from a local builder, Jim Robinson of Renaissance Strings. He is doing my fiddle work, and I bought a nice fiddle from him just before Xmas. I also bought an NS Design fiddle from Brian Wolfe at AMO. Better for taking out to the farmer's market gigs, and even the open mics. (I am finding the people around me kinda clutzy at these things).

There is a big difference in the fiddle market and the mandolin market. You need to spend the $$$ on the bow as well as the fiddle. Fiddles made in China are made by some excellent craftsmen, and you can spend several thousand on a Chinese-made fiddle. These are great instruments, and the workmanship is astounding. Prices for new fiddles are controlled by the distributors, and there are so many different styles- Strad, Amati, etc. Not so much wheeling and dealing. Someone described it to me as being akin to the diamond market.
The vintage fiddles are valued by someone who is extremely knowledgeable that goes around to all the dealers performing valuations. It is a more stringent market, and made in Germany, made in Italy, made in China doesn't mean much. That said, when I go over to Jim's in Nottingham (NH) to play fiddles I am concentrating on the sound and the feel. It has been an eye-opening experience. Spending $300 or $600 on a bow is now something I don't even think about. I think about how functional it is and what the sound is like coming from the marriage between the fiddle and the bow.

enough pontificating........

[Charlieshafer]

Lauren is in Portland, also on the board of 1 Longfellow Square there. She's had a vibrant program for years, with classical and fiddle. But as you say, there are a lot of great teachers around. Good thing it's just you on the fiddle, when my daughter was looking (as well as my wife, a symphony player) we'd spend years traveling shops between Boston and NYC playing hundreds, finding just the right one. And yeah, the bow is equally important. That you can keep it to three figures is impressive!

[Br1ck]

I've spent plenty on fiddles of various sizes. In the classical world dealers will let you take $20,000 to $60,000 worth of instruments out the door with nothing but a driver's license number. My daughter just bought a +$20,000 viola. She had instruments from four dealers from NY, Boston, Chicago, and LA sent to her for two week trials. After she picked one, she got an additional month, then sent them the money. Imagine doing that with mandolins.

The rule of thumb is that the bow should be around 1/3 the cost of the instrument. When my daughter was in graduate school, she called and said her bow would not do some of the technical things she needed to do. It was a $1200 bow. We bought her a $3500 bow.

I invested $20,000 in a viola and a cello. These were serious student instruments. They are now backups to $60,000 worth of instruments. Glad I didn't have to foot that bill!

The most money I have ever spent on one instrument for myself was $3400 for my 65 Texan, the next most expensive was$1800.

In the classical violin world, $20,000 equates to a MT mandolin. I have no idea what a violin for fiddle tunes would cost, but I would imagine a good fiddle is a good fiddle.

I can tell a classical violinist playing in a bluegrass band every time. Most don't have the attitude.

[Tom Wright]

...I can tell a classical violinist playing in a bluegrass band every time. Most don't have the attitude.

As one such I can tell you it is way more than attitude---there is a real difference in technique, and the moves one has practiced so long they are unconscious. These standard ways of playing for classical get in the way for most who attempt to crossover. Setting aside the challenge of improv, even getting a nice shuffle is really hard for a violinist that could toss off the Chaconne.

For me, the burden of decades in the classical world led me to simply give up and stick with picking.

BTW, a medium- or high-quality carbon bow beats an expensive pernambuco wood bow. I was using the mid-price ($500) Coda bow for my last ten years in the orchestra.

[Br1ck]

I agree with you on the technique. There is a Sara Watkins video where she is showing a classically trained player the difference in vibrato needed. Interesting.

[Mandobar]

Lauren is in Portland, also on the board of 1 Longfellow Square there. She's had a vibrant program for years, with classical and fiddle. But as you say, there are a lot of great teachers around. Good thing it's just you on the fiddle, when my daughter was looking (as well as my wife, a symphony player) we'd spend years traveling shops between Boston and NYC playing hundreds, finding just the right one. And yeah, the bow is equally important. That you can keep it to three figures is impressive!

I just saw that there is a bow maker in Freeport..........the 3 figures may move to four. I hear different things about the bow to fiddle ratio cost, and remember, there is a different mindset from violin to fiddle. As for the carbon fiber, I'm not sure there is such a big difference in the $300 Coda and the $500 to justify the difference in price. Personally, I think a bow has to feel right. The wood bows do have a bit more bounce, at least the Arcos Brasil ones that I have played.


Watch the documentary Highly Strung. They do a blind taste test, and the results are pretty surprising. There is a high ratio of people who find the newer instruments superior sounding to the old master like Guad, Strad, etc.

I don't however think that a $20k Jon Cooper violin equates to a $2700 Collings MT. Even a $5k American made fiddle (and there are some great ones out there) is well beyond an MT.

I had someone who is a very proficient violinist, playing with scores of chamber music groups and orchestras tell me that he was struggling trying to play irish tunes. He spent some time at the Mark O'Connor camp, shadowing Kevin Burke and just could not master the technique.

[Charlieshafer]

Yeah, the classical technique is quite different, for sure. The younger players we're seeing coming out of the conservatories now have much more experience in playing all styles. Jeremy Kittel is a great example, playing old-time and bluegrass with the band, then also releasing a Bach album. Most of the kids coming out of the New England Conservatory, Boston Conservatory and Berklee (I just see them more, as they're pretty local) grew up in all styles. Sarah Caswell is another great example, where she has had years of classical training, but really shines in jazz. The standard now in even the simplest baby bands is so absurd. it's as tough to get into Berklee now as it is Juillard. The quantity of audition tapes that David and Darol go through is mind-boggling.

The old standard saw of classical-palyers-can't-fiddle and vice-verse is being wiped out. There's a lot of fun stuff to be heard now! Fortunately, as with mandolins, the younger cross-genre kids seem to be well satisfied with fiddles around the 10-20k mark, many a little less. They sound pretty freakin' good on them.

[Jack Roberts]

Ive been playing mandolin for a bit longer than fiddle, but I started both in the latter part of adulthood. I can't see a good reason for not learning both if you want to enjoy either the bluegrass or fiddle tune genres. I generally start a new tune on one or the other, learn the basics of the tune, and then start with the other instrument and get my ideas about how it should be played on that. Then I just play and let them diverge.