Greetings, just wondering if someone could give some insight into a definition of "old time." Is it like Yank Rechelle? Mountain folk music? What defines it? Thanks
Greetings, just wondering if someone could give some insight into a definition of "old time." Is it like Yank Rechelle? Mountain folk music? What defines it? Thanks
PeacE
Brian
Here is a quote I got off the web:
Attached is a point paper I did some time ago about the difference between Bluegrass and Old-time. You can also find out a lot on the Old-time Music at the link below:Originally Posted by
http://www.oldtimemusic.com/otdef.html
Yank Rachell is more blues than old-time. The term "mountain folk music" is pretty close though.
The attachment didn't work the first time.
See the film "Songcatcher", then listen to Garcia on Shady Grove, then get a CD of the Crooked Jades. It's in there somewhere.
We few, we happy few.
Maybe I should add, it's mostly in the key of D, G, or A (depending on how the ban)o's tuned) - ha.
f-d
¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!
'20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A
I really enjoy the Garcia/Grisman "Shady Grove" CD and I also like the Crooked Jades. However, being heavily involved in old-time music in an area that has a significant old-time scene, I have to say that most old-time music people would not consider those to be old-time at all. I think they would say they are popular music with an old-time flavor.
Is it even possible to make new Old-Timey music today? It seems a somewhat 'frozen' style in many ways.
I'm personally side-stepping that whole issue by describing my group's music as 'Revisionist History'. That way there is no need to mask out our individual influences (Rock, Electric Blues, Folk-Scare stuff). Instead we bring our whole musical lives to the circle and simply try to behave like they did in the past, without specifically recreating what happened long ago.
We play by ear. We learn songs by playing them for each other (no TAB, or charts). We always play acoustic, and in community areas like pubs and coffee houses, and pretty much just inside our neighborhood.
To my thinking those are some critical non-musical elements of how music behaved 'back in the day'. I'll take the Old-Timey approach, without worrying too much about which notes I choose, or whether I swap out for a minor chord here and there.
Are there any modern songs that are played in Old-Timey circles, or has it pretty much been locked down since the 30's?
- Benig
I'm new to this, but i always assumed "old time" is pre-bluegrass, or the stuff that evolved into bluegrass.
Oldtime "IS NOT A CRIME"!
Ha, I love that! #And I love oldtime music!
Z
Member since 2003!
Isn't any style older than yesterday "frozen in time" to some extent? If bluegrass (or jazz or blues or classical, for that matter) can evolve (and there are certainly those who say it shouldn't), why can't old time?
Listen to Tim O's and Darrel Scott's new album "Real Time". Almost all are original compositions in an old-time style. Also, Reeltime Travelers play some original compositions that fooled me when I heard them. I didn't know they weren't traditional songs until I read the liner notes.
And then there's a group like Crooked Still, which plays old time stuff with a lot of jazzy, new acoustic influence. Maybe that's more like your "Revisionist" style, but it still sounds old time to me. VIVE LA EVOLUCION! #
Fiddles
Arches F4 / Newson F5
Crump B1 / Old Wave GOM
Yes, there are several modern tunes that are played by traditional old-time bands. Examples include, "Nail That Catfish to a Tree," "Snake River Reel," both written and recorded fairly recently by composers still living and playing. Also, you have people like Bruce Ling who is dong some great new old-time tunes on mando, yet to be recorded, like "Crawdad Shuffle" and "Incident on Abrigador Trail." What these tunes have in common is that they are true to the old-time tradition. They weren't written before 1930, but they could have been.
I feel caught in between here, because I am always taking the "evolutionary" side with the purists and then taking the "traditional" side with progressives. I feel I am not in either camp and can see both sides. As a wise person said on a previous dicussion about this, "You can't have a strong tree without deep roots. But if you keep cutting off all the branches, all you will have is an old stump." But I think it's important to preserve distinctions. If we as musicians don't make good distinctions about music, who will keep it all from becoming one big mish-mosh of popular music, which is already happening way too much?
So I say play what you want, it's all good, but call it what it is, or don't call it anything at all. The original poster seemed to honestly want to understand the old-time distinction and I wouldn't want him someday walking into a hard-core OT jam and calling a tune by the Jades without understanding the situation.
Just for the sake of discussion (since they're both excellent groups), why would The Reeltime Travellers merit the descriptor Old-Timey, while The Crooked Jades get the broader label of Popular Music?
(Cynically, I wonder if geography isn't a factor)
Doc Watson is old time music mostly.The Monroe brothers I feel are old timey. Anything from Ma Rainy to Doc Watson can be old timey and that's a lot of ground in between.
My favorite old timy recording in Mississippi John Hurts AVALON from 1928.
For a great overview get THE ANTHOLGY OF AMERICAN FOLK MUSIC put out on by Smithsonian Folkways Recordings edited by Harry Smith, This is the real stuff.
Let me make it clear that I like both of these groups. A lot. But in answer to the question:
Test #1: Would you want the Travelers being the dance band at a good-old-fashioned country barn dance? I would. It would be a blast. The Jades? I don't think so. Most of the tunes wouldn't even work for a dance. Like it or not, barn dances are a major root and purpose of old-time.
Test #2: Could you get away with calling Traveler tunes at a hard-core old-time jam? Most of them, not all. The Jades? Not the jams I go to.
Test #3: Play three cuts at random from each group's CDs for the people attending either event above and ask which one is old-time. No contest.
Test #4: Who would you bet your own money on in a traditional American Flat-foot dancing contest between Heidi Andrade of the Travelers and anyone in the Jades. Oh, puleese!
Test #5: Compare photos of the two groups on thier websites. 'Nuf said.
I could go on and on. You get the idea. But that's OK. "Old-time" is not some badge of honor, it's just a category. The Jades are great. Just not old-time.
The best example of " Old Time' music I can think of is Tim O' Brien's CD - " Songs From The Mountain "
keith madison
Right on, Johnny!
I totally agree. Those were my same thoughts on posting the question.
I'll add the the Jades also seem more 'contrived' in their arrangements (e.g. polyrhythms) while The Travellers are somehow more 'organic'.
RE: Geography. Heidi is actually from the 'wrong' coast, so clearly I was just being flippant.
BTW ... did you know that my favorite Jade is no longer with them? Poly-banjoist Tom Lucas is playing with The Donner Mountain String Band these days. (I heard Lisa moved on as well)
- Benig
Hi folks,
This is my very first post to the Mandolin Cafe, so I'll start with a brief introduction.
I'm primarily a clawhammer banjo player, but recently was grabbed by the mandolin bug (November of 2004) and I'm really enjoying myself. I play old time music in and around the Boston area and probably met several of you at Mandolin Camp a few weeks ago.
I think "old time" is a broad term that can refer to lots of music from the 20's and 30's. Rag time, country blues, early jazz etc. When I think of old time music however, I think of string band music from the 20's and 30's that adheres to the definition above: Scotch-Irish fiddle music with African and African American influences. If you listen to the old recordings, the musicians themselves refer to it as "old time", so it's not a new term that we've imposed onto an older tradition.
In terms of making "new" old time music today: I think it's possible, but difficult. The reason that these tunes have stood the test of time is that they're really good. As we all know, it's hard to write a good tune or song that is passed down through generations of people. Another problem with writing "new" old time tunes is that they inevitably end up with copywrites stamped all over them. That means that they're hard or expensive for folks to record themselves.
To me the point of old time music isn't to generate lots of new material. There are thousands and thousands of tunes to learn. More than anyone could learn in a lifetime. I think the emphasis in old time music is different: play what's out there already. It's like a language. We rarely come up with new words that really stick. We try to be as creative as we can with the words that we've been handed down.
You listen to the recordings from the 20's and you see a snapshot of an American culture that simply doesn't exist anymore. The musicianship is incredible and untouchable. The sound simply cannot be duplicated, but it can be approached. When I piece out a fiddle tune on a banjo or mandolin I feel like I can hear a time in America when playing music was more a part of everyday life. Sounds corny and nostalgic to some, I'm sure. And don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that America was a perfect and beautiful place, because it wasn't. But, we have lost that raw, honest and vibrant musical sensibility and playing old time music, for me at least, let's me connect with that other time.
The Crooked Jades, Reeltime Travelers, Crooked Still etc. are interesting, but I don't look to them as models of old time music. In terms of modern old time musicians, I like Brad Leftwich a whole bunch. He comes the closest to that old time sound. Check out the albums he's done with Tom Sauber and Alice Gerrard in a band called Tom, Brad and Alice. It's great stuff (with the occasional mandolin too).
The older stuff is where it's at though. This site is wonderful:
http://1001tunes.com/
"The Roots of American Fiddle Music Vol. 1 and 2" are highly recommended. You can get them through the site above. Usual disclaimers: I don't have any financial interest in the site.
If you listen to the early recordings, there aren't a whole lot of examples of mandolin playing. Ed Haley is accompanied by some nice mandolin playing (Mike Compton must have listened to the old Ed Haley recordings.) I think this is kind of cool. Mandolin is a legitimate old time instrument, but the field is wide open due to the few recordings of it in that context. To me that means that we are very much in the midst of a live tradition (and it's one of the main things that drew me to the mandolin). We have lots of possibilities in front of us to expand the role of the mandolin in old time music.
And I think that's where old time musicians get to satisfy their creative urges. We don't write many tunes because we realize that most of the good ones have already been written. They're just waiting to be rediscovered. The creativity comes in making variations on the fly with the melody, or backing up the fiddler in an interesting way.
That's why old time music feels so alive to me even though its golden age has already passed. And who's to say another golden age of traditional string band music isn't just around the corner?
Tom
--------------
Tom Collins
Salem, MA
Tom,
Great points. Welcome to the cafe!
I like your thoughts about why new Old-Time is difficult to write (and even a little off topic for that genre).
I believe the modern pressure for each musician to be 'original' and to write original matieral is probably a result of the recording industry (and copyright law by association), and is certainly a point of view that separates the modern player from those of the past.
Hence, my personal emphasis on trying to behave like an Old-Time player, without so much concern about replicating the acutal sound of the genre.
Do not follow the Master. Follow the path the Master has followed.
- Benig
Lisa and Stephanie are now part of the Stairwell Sisters. With Edie Lavin on banjo they're more like the Reeltime Travelers than the Jades - more of that old-time energy.
But when I saw the new Crooked Jades at the Palms (they opened for the Wilders) I liked them alot.
I'm not totally sure I agree with the barn dance litmus test. It ignores the role of church music and mountain ballads. I agree with Kbone about "Songs From the Mountain."
The fiddle/banjo "old-timey" dance music is only a part of what I think "old time" music is. There was a lot of variety in pre-bluegrass mountain music and I think something like "Shady Grove" catches that.
Wayne
Smile Anyway
OK B-man, what would the Master say?
"Always in motion is the future."
"You must unlearn what you have learned."
"Try not. Do or do not, there is no try...."
"Already know you that which you need..."
("I can’t believe it.") "That is why you fail."
I've posted this many times before, but if you have not heard them, check out the Foghorn Stringband (Portland, OR). #
http://www.foghornmusic.com
There is no doubt these guys are oldtime, top-to-bottom. #In terms of oldtime musicianship, it doesn't get much better. #They just plain kick-butt! #They have been doin' a little tourin' with Dirk and Riley. #
Yup, if it's a dance tune, it's pretty much oldtime!
Z
Member since 2003!
Hey mando johnny, just got a live recording of the Reeltime Travelers in Indiana. #It is great! #Do you have any of the live stuff?
Z
ps--saw them a couple of times at our little acoustic venue here in Flagstaff. #Great shows! #On par with the best I've ever seen.
Member since 2003!
I have a live recording of The reeltime Travellers at Strawberry Festival here in CA. They grabbed me from the first note, and I caught every show I could that weekend (3 sets!). I said "Hi!" to them everytime I passed them around camp.
On the last day of the festival, another camper handed me a disc of their main stage set ... just because he knew they were the weekend's highlight for me.
They call that generosity The Strawberry Way.
The recording is great. You can really hear their enthusiasm about being up in the Sierras, camping playing music ... loving life!
- Benig
MJ ... you crack me up! Of course you forgot to remind me that banjo really *is* the path to The Dark Side.
I saw the Foghorn Stringband a few months ago with Dirk Powell and Riley Baugus. They are a fine band indeed. The highlight of the show for me was the mandolin player. He's a very talented musician.
My one gripe with the Foghorn Stringband was the bass. I'm not a fan of bass in old time music because I feel like it squares off the tunes too much. I like the fiddle to drive the tune with bow pulses. It makes a tune feel a little more ragged and on the edge (to my ears anyway).
If you want to get some sampling of the old recordings, check out this site:
http://www.honkingduck.com/
Compare the recordings on the old 78s to the modern stuff and see what you think.
--------------
Tom Collins
Salem, MA
Hey Tom, interesting comment about "squaring off" the tune too much. #Do you mean that the bass is making the beats or measures too "even" for your tastes?
I've played that bass a little bit before--Brian has an old, beat-up American Standard (maybe 40's vintage, or earlier). #It is the loudest, boomiest bass I have ever touched.
Do you think that contributed to your feeling about it at all, or just bass in general? #
Did Caleb (mandolin player) sing at the show? #He has got one heck of a strong voice to go with awesome chops.
Z
Member since 2003!
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