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Thread: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Hi there recording folks. I record audio and shoot video for a number of small acoustic groups, with 1 to 5 players around one or two LDC microphones, bluegrass style. I have a notion to swap out their standard microphone, often the trusty AT4033 for a mid-side stereo microphone like the AT4050ST. Most of the venues seem to send a mono feed to the house PA, so my thought is to have them use the MID capsule for the PA, and send me the MID and SIDE separately, so that I can control the stereo spread in post. Alternately, I can use the matrix in the microphone, and have them sum the two channels for the PA, which should be exactly the same as taking just the MID for the PA - and panning the channels L and R and sending me that stereo signal to my (or the house) recorder.

    Anyone have experience with this setup? It seems to confuse sound guys a bit, who have no M-S experience.

    Here's the mic in question. Note that the output is switchable from M-S or 90º stereo or 127º stereo.

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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Never used M/S live for music, but I have used it shooting natural history ambient in the field. Also never used that particular mic. I can't see why it wouldn't work, though I would have thought it best to send the mic signal first to a good M/S capable field mixer like the the Sound Devices models, then a M/S signal into your camera and a summed mono to the house. That would give maximum flexibility in post. One thing to be aware of is that the mid capsules by themselves in M/S mics tend to have a pretty tight pattern - often closer to super-cardiod, and may be too narrow if used alone to pick up an entire group adequately. They're designed to be used with the sides to present an adequate image. As I said, though, never used that particular mic. Would be worth experimenting. I used a Shoeps mic rig into a Sound Devices 722. That has the feature of allowing decoding only into the headphones while preserving the raw M/S tracks for decoding later in post. You need something capable of decoding on the spot to accurately monitor what is going on.

    M/S can be quite tricky. Good, but tricky. I can see the benefits when you are mixing for TV/video and really need to be able to 'position' the soundstage very carefully, but I am not sure there would be much advantage over a regular L/R stereo recording for musical performances of the folk/bluegrass kind. You already have a pretty focused, tight, soundstage there - choirs are a different kettle of fish and I can see how it might be useful there. Still, you never know until you try, and I've never tried

    By the time you have got a good M/S mic, and M/S capable mixer/decoder, and invested in the various plugins and stuff needed in post, it is quite an expensive proposition. I would try and borrow a rig to play around with first, before putting all that $$$ into it.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    I've used M/S a few times in recording.

    I'm not sure it would work well for what you're proposing here, because the figure-8 sides might pick up some bleed from floor monitors, the FOH speakers, or just room reflections from the PA system. There's a lot of PA sound bleed swirling around on stage with live sound, and that might mess up your stereo soundstage compared to the usual way M/S is used for a field recording.

    Try to borrow a stereo mic or M/S pair to test this idea, if you don't already own the gear. If you do, then it might be worth trying. I've never done this, so I might be over-thinking the bleed into the mic.

    If the goal is to get a stereo soundstage along with a prominent central "Bluegrass mic" setup, then you could also try a pair of small condenser mics in X/Y or ORTF placed on a second mic stand, a bit further away. Maybe on a floor stand located at the front edge of the stage, pointing up at the band so it's not too obtrusive? Then blend the main vocal mic into that mix. That might give you better rejection of the ambient PA sound.
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Good point. Spill could be a serious issue in this case - not just in terms of audible bleed, but because M/S is incredibly phase-sensitive. If you have all kinds of out-of-phase spill from monitor or house reflections getting in there, it could do very nasty things.

    A cheap way to test this might be to see what happens using a Zoom H2n:

    http://www.zoom.co.jp/products/h2n/features/

    Even a decoder plugin available:

    http://www.zoom.co.jp/products/h2n/software/

    That little recorder actually does a pretty decent job of M/S minus the (typical) $5K+ outlay and hassle. You could just fix one of those to the mic stand in addition and give it a try in an affordable manner.....might reveal the potential benefits and drawbacks, anyway.

    PS: I know one guy who took an H2n into a very challenging environment rather than risk his normal Sennheiser rig, and just mounted on a fishpole in a shock mount. He was absolutely astonished at just how good the results were. It ended up being used right alongside material recorded with really high-$$ kit, and the whole thing was only around $150. Zoom make some amazing stuff. I have their R16 multitrack, and honestly, I can fit tracks from that right alonside material recorded on our Apogee Ensemble and 99% of the time, I'd defy anyone to be able to ID which track was recorded on which device...it is a phenomenal piece of equipment for the money.
    Last edited by almeriastrings; Oct-09-2013 at 12:35am. Reason: Added PS:
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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Thanks for the feedback. I tried the AT4050ST tonight at a show with two great flatpickers, Michael Daves and Andy Falco (Incredible Stringdusters), and brother Pat Falco on bass. In this case, I wasn't shooting video, but we were just testing the mic. The engineer used a bit of the figure of eight capsule in the mix, and mostly MID, of course. The boys sounded great, perhaps a bit more 'natural' than with the usual AT4033, with plenty of 'width' to the pattern - but that may be due to the engineer mixing in a bit of the SIDE. And there were no stage monitors to contend with.

    But the venue is set up to record 'post fader' so he was recording the same mono feed that went to the house. To get stereo, I would need to set up something like what 'Almeria' describes, recording the signal on my own equipment, or at least doing a two channel sub mix for my purposes. (and I have been intimidated by the price of the Sound Designs mixer)

    I have used a second MS mic - as I did in the recording below. The house sound is through the LDC, and my mic is outside the shot. It sounded pretty good, but my goal is to have a single microphone for both house and recording. I like the uncluttered look, and the bluegrass folks use proximity to the microphone very actively, unlike these three (The Murphy Beds) who stay seated. A nice feature of decoding MS in post-production is that I can control how much natural room ambiance gets into the recording simply by adding more SIDE to the mix.

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    In The Van Ben Milne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Hey Brad if you're dealing with mixers with post fade direct outs and need more level, take a couple of XLR y-splits and use seperate channels to get into your recorder.
    Unassign them from the stereo bus, and set your own levels, without being affected by the house guy's EQ or gain changes.
    Alternatively if the mixer has subgroups assign the side channels to subgroups and attenuate for the house mix further downstream.


    Never used Mid-Side on stage but would be interested to hear results. Like Almeria I would think using only the mid info would perhaps be too narrow, while all of the side info at full pelt may prove troublesome. Sounds like the house engineer at the venue found a good point of balance.
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    I agree with the concerns Folded mentioned earlier. After you've recorded, you realize there's a LOT more ambient noise kicking around than when you first recorded at the venue. That lovely natural reverb "air" isn't quiet and lush, it's filled with shuffling feet, coughs, general stuff, and every little click or pop is clear as a bell. And that doesn't even account for the monitor noise, the band's noise they make themselves. It's surprisingly noisy. I've chucked more recordings than I can count as they were just too noisy to be enjoyable. Fine for youtube, but that was about it. My favorite solution is a lot of work, so I don't bother much, but it's basically having a separate "shadow" sound system, with small diaphragm condensers micing the artists for recording, while whatever is being used for the live show just sitting next to the recording mic on the same stand. Those mics and the instrument mics (usually clip ons or pickups) from the board get blended and mixed.

    Alternatively, just try to hang a couple of mics in typical x stereo fashion, and go for the sound that way. The easiest way for the experienced is to run each channel into the computer as a separate feed, and then mix them as you would a studio recording, but that takes some software power.

    Honestly, for really great quality recordings that I'd listen to again, I found them to be so much work that I rarely go to the effort, so instead, I just go for a reasonable facsimile of the show and make it fun.

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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Ben - You're touching on the question that is much on my mind. If I keep MID in one channel, SIDE in the other - then split the signal, and send one pair to the house and one to my own deck, that's a solution. I wonder if the splitter causes any significant loss of signal. And is there a danger with phantom power coming from the board AND my deck? And if only from the board, might the phantom power cause trouble for my deck. I'll just have to give it a try and find out.

    Charlie - I totally get your point, most rooms are NOT Carnegie Hall, and you can hear that in the video I produced above for sure. But I think it sounds pretty darn good for Youtube! For radio broadcasts, I have some experience bringing in a 'shadow' set up - pretty much a complete studio set up alongside the house system. But I'm creating videos primarily for social media - and the bands are on a super tight budget. Every efficiency helps me/them out. At the same time, the musicians are sick of the flood of cell phone videos, and that's why they come to me.

    I'm going to explore splitters first, and see how that works. As for the width of the MID pattern, these are musicians who typically use a single cardioid anyway, so they are used to it. An the engineer last night must have had his head screwed on right to mix in a little of the fig 8 without any feedback. Can't always count on that!
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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    On trick of mid side is getting the same sound from the "sides", then reversing the polarity of the one "side". That's where the magic happens. Would be very different if you are not getting the same signal from both "sides", which in a live setting like you discussed, you definitely would not.

    Take my words with a grain of salt as I just record in studio, not live.
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    I'm going to explore splitters first, and see how that works. As for the width of the MID pattern, these are musicians who typically use a single cardioid anyway, so they are used to it.
    Most dedicated M/S mics have a pattern closer to super-cardiod. To me, in that clip, the guys sounded somewhat off-axis and the fiddle threatened to overpower them at times. There is a lack of 'presence' and 'intimacy' in the voices that (to my ears) suggests they are a bit far from the optimum pickup zone. Just an observation. Very good otherwise.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    If I keep MID in one channel, SIDE in the other - then split the signal, and send one pair to the house and one to my own deck, that's a solution. I wonder if the splitter causes any significant loss of signal. And is there a danger with phantom power coming from the board AND my deck? And if only from the board, might the phantom power cause trouble for my deck. I'll just have to give it a try and find out.
    If I'm not mistaken, splitters are usually set up so phantom power is only applied to one side of the split output and the other is isolated from phantom power. I think the accepted practice with a mic splitter serving both FOH live mixer and a separate recording chain, is that you let the house provide phantom power, and you take the non-phantom side to your recorder. Be very careful about any ad-hoc setup where phantom power could be applied to an input on your recorder from some other source. Some gear can be damaged that way.

    You could do it the other way -- you supply 48v from your recorder to the splitter and the FOH mixer takes the other side (no phantom power enabled). But as a general rule, I think it's better not to mess with the FOH engineer's usual practice, which would be to apply phantom power for condenser mics at the FOH mixer location. There can be some diplomacy involved with adding a mic splitter at all, with some FOH engineers. Especially on something critical like a Bluegrass single mic setup. So, it's best to make a minimal intrusion on their setup. This also takes care of a situation with some mixers where phantom power can't be enabled/disabled on a per-channel basis, although most big FOH boards will have that feature. Of course if you're running both FOH and recording yourself, then this isn't an issue.
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    In The Van Ben Milne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Most Y-splits are passive anyway, so it wont matter who supplies, just use the usual source, probably the venue.

    That does however highlight the issue that each feed being split again may cause impedance issues for the mic/preamp relationship. Splitting too many times can cause loading issues, best practise not to split more than twice before integrating iso-transformers, active splits etc.
    I wasn't sure at what point the channels are being decoded, and was under the impression you were utilising the house console to tap your record feed.
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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    Most dedicated M/S mics have a pattern closer to super-cardiod. To me, in that clip...
    Perhaps most, but not the AT4050ST, specs and my experience indicate much closer to cardioid than super-cardioid. The video clip is a different setup, different MS mic. It's the situation that I'm trying to improve upon, and my microphone is not visible in that video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    Take my words with a grain of salt...
    MS stereo matrixing is worth understanding - I won't go into it here since it's explained in detail in many places on the web. Suffice it to say that you can vary the 'spread' of the stereo field in post-production - and if you sum the L and R channels of that stereo signal the mono result is the same as taking the MID capsule only.

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    as a general rule, I think it's better not to mess with the FOH engineer's usual practice, which would be to apply phantom power for condenser mics at the FOH mixer location.
    That sounds right to me. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Milne View Post
    I wasn't sure at what point the channels are being decoded...
    That's a good question. If the house can get the mono signal they want, and give me the M and S in separate channels, either stereo L-R or multitrack session, then I'll decode in post production. If that's too advanced for their board or board op, I can use the built in matrix in the AT4050ST and let them sum that to mono, while I get the stereo L-R.


    Would something like this be substantially better than a Y splitter cable? I think so:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    I'm not a mic expert at all and I haven't tried M/S on my own, but I'm obsessed with the idea of a good mid-side recording. At least theoretically. This recording example sold me on the concept at least for recording an intimate acoustic group. I can't stop listening to it. The imaging and natural sound blew me away. Listen on a good system or put some headphones on!

    I know this contributes nothing to solve the problem of the OP but just thought I'd share a recording sample I found

    Cheers,
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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Quote Originally Posted by Avi Ziv View Post
    just thought I'd share a recording sample I found
    Note that example is NOT a conventional Mid-Side recording and not that sort that would work at all for the application I'm describing. Here's how it's described by the guy on the site you linked to (gear slutz).

    "I have a gig next week,vocals,gtr,acoustic bass,feature gtr,viola/fiddle,drums/perc which I will record on a pair of eights MS"

    It's 'typical' to use a figure of eight mic for the SIDE, but more common to use a cardioid mic for the MID. (at least in the applications I work in, video production and ENG) Using another 'eight' for the MID is an unusual technique that I think of as a blumlein pair (see wikipedia for details), but decoded using mid-side technique instead of simply running one mic to each stereo channel. Of course you can use an eight for the mid, or an omni for the mid, just saying those would be unlikely choices for a group on a stage facing the audience.
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Brad, I yield to your expertise. Did not mean to obscure the discussion

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    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    I don't mean to shut you down, Avi. I'm certainly no expert and really grateful for the suggestions from others here. A cool thing about the 'blumlein' set-up used in the sample you linked to, is that although the musicians were recorded in a circle around the mics -- the stereo image creates the illusion of them facing the listener in a row. He provides a nice diagram:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Of course, in live events you can't normally stand in a circle. And like Charlie pointed out in post 7, the direction opposite the musicians often has a lot of random noise in addition to the nice ambiance of the room. And that makes bidirectional figure 8 mics problematic on stage, except when used as the side channel of a mid-side set up.
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    I shall be interested to hear how it all works out. It worked well for me with recording the calls of poison dart frogs in Costa Rica for Discovery Channel, but your application alongside a house PA is new territory...
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Note to self: Name bluegrass band, The Poison Dart Frogs. Or perhaps, The Poison Dart Frog Ramblers!
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Thanks again for the help everyone. I've settled on buying a pair of Whirlwind IMP microphone splitters to make my rig work. They come up on evilbay pretty often, and I've also placed a WTB in the classifieds here, hoping that someone has a couple gathering dust in a drawer somewhere.
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    A YEAR LATER...
    While posting in another old thread, I remembered this one, and wanted to thank the folks who weighed in, and show an example of the results. Here's a Tommy Jerrell classic from a duo show I recorded for Michael Daves and the fantastic fiddler Brittany Haas. I split the mid-channel of the 4050ST and powered it from the house mixer and that was the house sound. While I took both channels and provided phantom to the side only. Seemed to work fine, but I wonder if it ever would cause a problem to supply the mid phantom from the house, and the side from my recorder?

    If you listen through headphones or speakers, you'll hear that I decoded the signal w just a slight stereo spread, which seemed right for this performance, and then my standard post-production for this setup.

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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mid-Side Microphone for Live Recordings

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    I wonder if it ever would cause a problem to supply the mid phantom from the house, and the side from my recorder?
    I am not familiar with the precise circuit used in that mic, but if it is designed so that separate phantom 'feeds' are provided/allowed for, I would be surprised if it did cause a problem. AT designs tend to be very good and if that was an issue, I would have thought they would have excluded the possibility of trouble by only allowing for a single feed, splitting it internally. The only possible issue might be the the obvious one of increased susceptibility to ground-loops... but if your recorder is battery operated or otherwise galvanically isolated, that may not be a problem. I'd give it a try.

    Speaking of M/S I happen to have the brand new Tascam DR60D Mk.II on test here right now. Just arrived the other day. Very nice M/S capable little recorder, with notably improved preamp performance over the older DR60D. I've tried it with some of my own, high quality 'field' mics, and also with the very decent sounding little Tascam TM-2X (the same mics used on the other DR series, but on an isolated hot-shoe mount). Very good for ambient... I'll post some examples after I have played with it a bit more.

    I think you are getting some very nice results there!
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