I spend most or all my time.....

[dusty miller]

Whenever I pick up my mandolin I spend most of my time working on old songs I know to make them better or working on new songs, leads and backup. I know the fretboard for the most part but I don't seem to work on things like scales and such that would open up some improv for myself. I have only really been putting a lot of time into the mandolin since April but there comes a time when you want to break away from copying leads to adding your own flavor to the music. I'm sure I could go to a jam a do okay but with not as much satisfaction as I think I would get being able to add my own flair to the music. Anyone else fall into this trap? How long until you started to work and think about putting some of yourself into the music instead of just copying music?

Kris

[Tom Coletti]

When I first joined a classical guitar ensemble, I could read music but never had any interest in playing scales. The more I practiced scales and positions, however, the better my playing, ability to sight-read, and improv ability became. Training one's ear, be it by listening to a piece and determining keys, modes, etc., or by listening to songs to be able to learn/play along with them without sheet music, is also an important part of learning how to improvise. Ear training will tell you what notes to play, and scales will tell you how to play them. Then, once you start getting the hang of it, just mess around with a melody without too much thought into making mistakes or planning every note; sometime's you will mess up, but occasionally you will accidentally stumble upon a neat lick that you then remember for later and use as a springboard for other licks/filler.

--Tom

[tmsweeney]

scales are well worth the effort and investment in time, I would only caution to not to get too caught up in them. There are 7 primary patterns and they work in various keys depending on the tonic. One thing I used to do, is walk the scale up and down the neck, start in G with the open course , then start on the 2nd fret of the G string but play a G scale, then move up to the 4th fret starting on B but keeping in the key of G and so on up the neck to the 12th then beck down.
Then do the D scale but start on the open G and then the 2nd fret and so, do this in every key or all the more popular ones C,G,D,A,E, F, Bb.
It helps to have some different chord patterns behind you to try improvising off scales, if you can record yourself on your computer or smart phone, just doing chords,( or better yet if you can find a partner who is about the same level as you), then try different things over that. Try altering simple melodies slightly, use chordal or arpeggio patterns, and then modify from there. I think as I have matured as a musician , I tend to appreciate simpler lines more.
At any rate you can play scales to various metronome patterns to help build a rhythmic foundation, I will say that takes some serious dedication and patience.

[jethromondawg]

I have found that learning patterns and scales by playing along to Pandora or my quite eclectic iTunes list, using root notes and the suggested positioning of respective fingers to play the melody of anything from "Summertime" to "Misty" to "Any Old Time",etc.
Once I've gained some facility in mastering the melody and gained some comfort at matching the style and arrangement character of. Doc and Dawg or Johnny Mathis, my ability to improvise starts to move beyond imitation and pure cliche towards finding and pursuing my own "voice"
in both playing and singing

[Ivan Kelsall]

Kris - On the mandolin,i did exactly what i'd done on the banjo years back & copied everything until i had my own bag of 'licks & tricks'. I haven't worked on 'scales' as such,what i've done is to work out 'runs of notes' that fit in with the tunes / songs that i play.There's nothing at all wrong with 'copying' either,after all,many world famous Classical musicians do that all the time. They'll use famous recordings by other artistes as a model for their own performance. 'Re-creating' fabulous performances has a lot going for it (IMHO). Right now i'm honing up my playing of 'Old Ebenezer Scrooge' until it sounds as close to Bill Monroe's original as i can get it. That's the way i like to hear it
& that's the way i want to play it,
Ivan

[dusty miller]

Kris - On the mandolin,i did exactly what i'd done on the banjo years back & copied everything until i had my own bag of 'licks & tricks'. I haven't worked on 'scales' as such,what i've done is to work out 'runs of notes' that fit in with the tunes / songs that i play.There's nothing at all wrong with 'copying' either,after all,many world famous Classical musicians do that all the time. They'll use famous recordings by other artistes as a model for their own performance. 'Re-creating' fabulous performances has a lot going for it (IMHO). Right now i'm honing up my playing of 'Old Ebenezer Scrooge' until it sounds as close to Bill Monroe's original as i can get it. That's the way i like to hear it
& that's the way i want to play it,
Ivan

I didn't mean copying was a bad thing. I think that's how you learn and pick up things from the pro's and greats that we listen to. I guess it is just a matter of changing my practice regiment in order to learn some improvisation skills to become a more well rounded player. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in a rut once in awhile.

[Mike Arakelian]

I'm taking lessons from a talented young musician and told him that I want him to teach me good improvising skills and technique. His approach, and one that I highly endorse, is to work with scales and arpeggios. I spend up to a half hour working on Pentatonic scales in G, D, C, A & E all over the fret board. I play the scales, up, down, from the middle up and down, and any which way I can think of or have a feel for. They're played in quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets and combinations thereof. It's amazing at how comfortable I'm getting in various keys and at different positions on the board. Putting this exercise into practice, I'm now taking some simple songs like I'll Fly Away or Will The Circle Be Unbroken, etc. and writing out riffs. The writing is reinforcing the scales for me, and more importantly helping me develop my timing and need to lead from one chord to the next. As you can tell, I'm far from being an accomplished mandolinist, but I feel very comfortable in a jam and am getting bolder in taking solos and breaks that I feel good about. The scales are as my teacher said,the building blocks to good improvising. I totally agree!

P.S. I'm next in line for one of Marty's instrument. #30 will be Black Tie #3.

[dusty miller]

Thank you Mike, that's helpfull!
That is exciting you are going to get one of Marty's instruments, congrats on that, bet your chomping at the bit already. Awesome looking/sounding stuff he builds.

Kris

[Mike Arakelian]

Kris,

I'm chomping at the bit waiting for Marty to put out photos of the present batch(including yours) as soon as he's finished. I was in his shop a couple of weeks ago, and they looked fantastic even before he had done the final sanding and finish work. Both he and Monica are super nice people, and I couldn't be more excited than to have him build an instrument for me. I know that you'll love yours. Be sure to post some comments after you receive it, and enjoy watching Marty's posts as he builds the next batch.

Mike

P.S. Where in PA do you live? We spent 17 years in Valley Forge before we moved to NC.

[dusty miller]

I'm jealous you had a first hand look! I will post some comments and maybe a video when I get mine, very excited to say the least. Marty does an awesome job of keeping us up to speed with pics and videos.
I'm up in the northeastern part of the state.

[Tobin]

Kris, you're not alone in this. I fall into the same trap myself sometimes (uh, more often than not, actually). I find myself wanting to fine-tune a particular part of a fiddle tune, or learn a new tune, and I end up spending all my time playing someone else's music instead of working on my own improvisation skills. I've found it helpful to start off my playing time by warming up with scales and arpeggios, then move on to working on existing tunes for a while until I'm really in the groove. Then block out a segment of time where I work on nothing but improvisation. Instead of making it like "work", I will play backing tracks to various songs in different keys. In many cases, they may be songs that I've already been working on pre-written parts for, but I'll force myself to improvise in a different direction than what I am used to playing. I have an hour-long commute home each day, so I'll often spend that time thinking of a different way to play over certain chord progressions, and then try it out when I get to my improvising time.

There's no doubt about it, you just have to spend time playing off-the-cuff material in order to get better at improvising. Just build it into your daily playing time, and don't give yourself the option not to do it each day. Noodling around with new ideas isn't as fun sometimes as really jamming on a tune that you know like the back of your hand, but there are ways to make it 'almost' as fun.

[Nevin]

Scales and arpeggios are great; they are the basic vocabulary. One thing my bass teacher taught me that I think is applicable to think not just of where you are but of where you are going. For example, don't just think I am on a G7 chord and I can use this arpeggio or scale but to thing I am on a G7 chord going to a C7 chord. What will make my line work so that change and my line work together. Thinking across bar lines has brought my playing forward a lot.

[JeffD]

You can learn a ton by playing tunes. Absolutely.

What playing scales and arpeggios gives is completely generalizable. In other words playing tunes helps you play tunes. Playing scales and arpeggios helps you play everything.

There are those that disagree with me, and say that you can generalize from what you learn playing tunes, and that is true. Others who say that playing scales and arpeggios only helps you play scales and arpeggios, and I don't agree with that.

But for the greatest generalizable impact for your practice time, scales and arpeggios are the way. What ever genre of music you play now, or may play in the future, scale time will help.

I also think they are kind of fun, for the times I want to play the mandolin, but have no particular tune or music in mind. Just fun to be making the sounds and hearing myself over the years getting better (or, really, getting stuck at ever higher levels).

[Jim]

I think playing scales & arpeggios teaches you to play scales and arpeggios, playing tunes teaches you ways to use them.

[OldSausage]

I always find I learn the most by transcribing other people's solos. I guess by this point I pretty much have the scales and arpeggios down, but for insights that would never have occurred to my poor little brain, finding out how great pickers solved improvisational problems, plus the ear training of transcribing, seems to give me the best results for the time I spend on it.

[Mark Wilson]

I have only really been putting a lot of time into the mandolin since April but there comes a time when you want to break away from copying leads to adding your own flavor to the music. I'm sure I could go to a jam a do okay but with not as much satisfaction as I think I would get being able to add my own flair to the music. Anyone else fall into this trap?

I got my first mandolin in May. Once you kinda get a taste of improvising it can take over your practice time if you let it. Would I be better off in the long run learning one new song after another? Probably. Maybe. I'm not sure. But I'm playing everyday and sounding more and more like me.

[dusty miller]

I got my first mandolin in May. Once you kinda get a taste of improvising it can take over your practice time if you let it. Would I be better off in the long run learning one new song after another? Probably. Maybe. I'm not sure. But I'm playing everyday and sounding more and more like me.

Well Mark I have to say I am the polar opposite of what you are doing, I belong to the Song of the Week Group , Newbies Song of the Month Group, and on top of that learn/ work on songs I feel I can't live without like Dusty Miller, Jerusalem Ridge and whatever strikes me so that's about all I do. You and everybody that posted here make great points and I guess I just have to make an effort and change up what I'm doing and explore other avenues of learning.

Kris

[dusty miller]

Kris, you're not alone in this. I fall into the same trap myself sometimes (uh, more often than not, actually). I find myself wanting to fine-tune a particular part of a fiddle tune, or learn a new tune, and I end up spending all my time playing someone else's music instead of working on my own improvisation skills. I've found it helpful to start off my playing time by warming up with scales and arpeggios, then move on to working on existing tunes for a while until I'm really in the groove. Then block out a segment of time where I work on nothing but improvisation. Instead of making it like "work", I will play backing tracks to various songs in different keys. In many cases, they may be songs that I've already been working on pre-written parts for, but I'll force myself to improvise in a different direction than what I am used to playing. I have an hour-long commute home each day, so I'll often spend that time thinking of a different way to play over certain chord progressions, and then try it out when I get to my improvising time.

There's no doubt about it, you just have to spend time playing off-the-cuff material in order to get better at improvising. Just build it into your daily playing time, and don't give yourself the option not to do it each day. Noodling around with new ideas isn't as fun sometimes as really jamming on a tune that you know like the back of your hand, but there are ways to make it 'almost' as fun.

Glad to here I wasn't the only one. Great points made and post!

Kris

[JeffD]

Once you kinda get a taste of improvising it can take over your practice time if you let it. Would I be better off in the long run learning one new song after another? Probably. Maybe. I'm not sure. But I'm playing everyday and sounding more and more like me.

Everyone's goals are different. I am not convinced being a great improviser is even near the top of my list. My goals in practice are to be able to sight read better, to be able to pick up tunes by ear better, to be able to play certain tunes more seamlessly, to be better at picking out the chords by ear, to be able to pull out interesting double stops to support my melody playing, to better support others' solos with either chord backup or harmony playing, and after I see progress on all of that (whew), to maybe be better at improvising.

[JeffD]

I find scales help with the ear training and musical intuition. I raise the bar by doing scales with double stops, so I can get more practice and develop the intuition to harmonize with any note anywhere. Tons of ways it helps.