Fretless Mandolin

[majnuunNavid]

I'm an Oud player and Mandolin player. I love playing my Mandolin and I play mostly Celtic music on it. I love having frets but I have a quarrel with equal temperament and sometimes just can't get over the annoyances of it sometimes. I'm back and forth playing middle eastern music and then sometimes I play western music, but get frustrated that the melodies I play on both instruments don't sound the same.

I was wondering if anyone has made a fretless mandolin and has played it for some time. I would love to chat about this and hear how it feels, if possible if there are any sound clips that I can hear.

I am also open to the possibility of adding gut movable frets similar to lutes. Similar to mandolino lombardo...

Anyone have a fretless Mandolin? I know it's a long shot, anyone have movable frets on their mandolin?


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[Jordan Mong]

I made a thread about it a while ago, but got little information. I know there are some out there, but no sound clips or videos. I am sure defretting a mandolin is no harder than doing so to a bass (minus the much smaller sizes) Has anyone tried that?

[Perry Babasin]

OK, so these little things are so hard to balance and keep in tune anyway, how are you going to chord on this? You could do some crazy runs, but chords?

[Perry Babasin]

This is weird...



From Lehtela Guitar Craft...

"Sitari: a double-necked instrument, the lower right neck is a short scale sitar neck housing large curved brass frets which are movable and removable. Unlike the traditional sitar the frets here are fastened with decorative button head screws in place of gut or twine for a much more secure positioning. The second neck starts with the first string fretless followed by three courses of steels within an equal tempered and micro-toned fretting section similar to that of the Turkish Saz followed by three drone strings. Finally, a set of sympathetic strings are also added here complete with a "buzzy bridge." Hollowbody and neck construction throughout. Electronics include a Lace Aluma 90 for the sitar neck, RMC piezo for the second neck and a internal piezo element housed within the body for acoustical reproduction of all string elements throughout."

[Marty Jacobson]

I think you might like to play the violin... without the frets to stop the strings crisply (on a mandolin), the sustain will suffer. Even despite that, I don't think a mandolin scale length would provide enough sustain for a satisfying fretless instrument. Ouds typically have a scale more like an octave mandolin, right? Approaching double that of a mandolin.

[Jordan Mong]

Ouds typically have a scale more like an octave mandolin, right?

I do not believe so. Maybe a bit bigger than a mandola.

[catmandu2]

Ouds typically have a scale more like an octave mandolin, right? Approaching double that of a mandolin.

usually 61cm - 62cm - Arabic, although many are made shorter
average 58.5 cm - Turkish

[OldSausage]

Apparently dudes do it, and it plays just fine and dandy:

[Marty Jacobson]

Yeah... that's what I was talking about. Hear how it sounds quite a bit like a violin being plucked? The note gets choked off by the softness of your fingers. He hits some open strings at the end and it's like someone let in a breath of fresh air after all those choked-off notes. There's more sustain on the fretted notes than I expected in the video, but the gain is pretty cranked. I think you need to get up into the 20 - 23" range for this to really work.

[majnuunNavid]

Great responses guys, thanks for the info.

The sustain and the sound is important to me that's why I'm also interested in the movable frets as well. They would need to be tough material to withstand the brunt of the metal strings. I could also try and find a luthier who would help me insert more frets to get the quartertonal quality I'm looking for, but then the pitches would be permanent, and that's annoying for the type of music I want to play because sometimes our quartertones are a little flat, sometimes sharper, it's a matter of taste and mode as well.

Last year I recorded some music from the Baluchi province of Iran, and I played Mandolin on a few tracks. The tuning I used was an open tuning, because we don't play chords in Middle Eastern music either, just 4ths and 5ths mostly. Fortunately, the music didn't call for quartertones. Nevertheless, the result was amazing. The instrument sounded great for this type of music, and I want to see what other potentialities this might have. I'll post a link to one of the songs I played on so you can hear it.

Here it is, I'd love to hear what you think. The mandolin starts at the beginning, but is mixed very well so I hope you can hear it. Better to try with earphones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co74Hy-sIBs



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[TheBlindBard]

I like the sound of that sitari-- some day I want to get a sitar or something like that with that sound, they sound really beautiful.
I've always kind of wondered-- could a fret-board be radiused enough so that a violin bow could be used on the strings, or perhaps an altered bridge to get the strings going in the type of way that would allow them to be bowed?

[Mattbro]

I know it's a bit late on this forum, but I have been playing the mandolin and violin on a semi-pro basis for years. I also play bass guitar and once in a fit of pique, defretted my bass, painted the fret markers on, lacquered over the top and bought plastic coated strings. The result was the most playable bass I ever had-so much so, I have trouble playing any others. I decided to go the same way on a mando basis. I brought a Strat style guitar neck, defretted it, then sawed up a tele saddle, knocked out the bottom five frets from the board, filled the fret gaps, blacked out the board, painted contrast frets on, put marine varnish over the top and now have what is best described as a 5 string fretless stick mandolin (it's longer scale than mandolin and shorter than mandola). I have to say, there is definitely something in these fretless instruments. I love my ovation mandolin, but being able to slide, have huge sustain and fingertips intact after a session is fantastic, and it does allow sounds that are right out of the genre. Arabic scales are a little beyond me, but the viability is there.

Great responses guys, thanks for the info.

The sustain and the sound is important to me that's why I'm also interested in the movable frets as well. They would need to be tough material to withstand the brunt of the metal strings. I could also try and find a luthier who would help me insert more frets to get the quartertonal quality I'm looking for, but then the pitches would be permanent, and that's annoying for the type of music I want to play because sometimes our quartertones are a little flat, sometimes sharper, it's a matter of taste and mode as well.

Last year I recorded some music from the Baluchi province of Iran, and I played Mandolin on a few tracks. The tuning I used was an open tuning, because we don't play chords in Middle Eastern music either, just 4ths and 5ths mostly. Fortunately, the music didn't call for quartertones. Nevertheless, the result was amazing. The instrument sounded great for this type of music, and I want to see what other potentialities this might have. I'll post a link to one of the songs I played on so you can hear it.

Here it is, I'd love to hear what you think. The mandolin starts at the beginning, but is mixed very well so I hope you can hear it. Better to try with earphones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co74Hy-sIBs



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[Cheryl Watson]

Sometimes I'm not so sure that having perfect pitch is a good thing and this is one of those times--LOL! <Ouch, my ears!!>

Apparently dudes do it, and it plays just fine and dandy:

[Mandorich]

Sometimes I'm not so sure that having perfect pitch is a good thing and this is one of those times--LOL! <Ouch, my ears!!>

This video hurt my ears too even though I just have very well developed relative pitch.

The original poster might want to check out a Turkish instrument called a Cumbus (pronounced Jim/Bush). It's a banjo head over a large metal bowl with a fretless 12 string short scale guitar neck. I've played middle Eastern music on one and it's great for microtones and slides.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Q5atX5Vw0

[Jim Garber]

The sustain and the sound is important to me that's why I'm also interested in the movable frets as well. They would need to be tough material to withstand the brunt of the metal strings. I could also try and find a luthier who would help me insert more frets to get the quartertonal quality I'm looking for, but then the pitches would be permanent, and that's annoying for the type of music I want to play because sometimes our quartertones are a little flat, sometimes sharper, it's a matter of taste and mode as well.

It does seem a little odd to take out the frets of a mandolin (material that would be tough enough to withstand the brunt of the metal strings) then replace it with the same. Perhaps the key here might just to create a mandolin with low profile frets as well as those to give you quarter tones. Maybe even some interchangeable fretboards for the different modes.

BTW here is an older thread on quartertones.

A guy named Ben Wylie posted "Five Little Tunes" for Quarter Tone Mandolin. I am not sure what he is using as an instrument.

Here is a Låtmandola, an ocatve mandola made for Ale Möller by luthiers Christer Ådin and Anders Ekvall.

[jonathan45]

I made one from an old bowl back. I like the freedom of choice of notes. It has a good sound but not much sustain. About half what the standard mando does. It's faster, with no frets in the way, and easier on the fingers. I think it would be great for classic Italian or Celtic music, but not for bluegrass.

[Petrus]

Yep, flat frets are one way to go and might be a good compromise. They help you get the right positioning while not interfering with any mad gliss you might want to do.

Speaking of frets and/or lack thereof and/or moveable frets ... check out this microtonal guitar. Question: Would this system work on a mando? (I'm thinking not enough space on the fretboard.) It looks scary awesome.

The Adjustable Microtonal Guitar has been designed by Tolgahan Cogulu in 2008. It was accepted and funded as a scientific research project at Istanbul Technical University Dr. Erol Ucer Center for Advanced Studies in Music under the supervision of Prof. Sehvar Besiroglu.

http://www.tolgahancogulu.com/en/microtonal-guitar/

[Petrus]

I've always kind of wondered-- could a fret-board be radiused enough so that a violin bow could be used on the strings, or perhaps an altered bridge to get the strings going in the type of way that would allow them to be bowed?

Certainly. You'd definitely need a violin-style bridge and a very radiused fingerboard, just like on a bowed instrument, to be able to access all the strings easily. I'd want to keep the mando's unique paired courses though, so the bridge and fingerboard would have to be wide too.