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Thread: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

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    Default Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Hello, all,
    Just a bit of an observation: it seems like lots of traditional irish tunes can be split into parts:
    Both in Down by the Sally Gardens and For the Star of County Down, the first part of the tune repeats twice, goes to another part, then comes back. The same with Rolling in the Ryegrass, but I haven't learned to play that one yet fully.
    Are other types of tunes like this- or is there a different pattern for styles of tunes? polcas, jiggs, reels?

  2. #2
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Structure is neccessary. A traditional dance tune has parts, and each part is repeated in most cases, like AABB or AABBCC. There is a superstructure: each tune is repeated at least once or twice. There is yet another super-superstructure: several tunes are chained into sets of 2 or 3.

    The two examples you mentioned, however, are not traditional dance tunes: There is a reel called The Sally Gardens, but Down by the Sally Gardens is a song (with words from W.B.Yeats, btw). There is a song called Star of the County Down, but of For the Star of County Down I have only found one version on YouTube which is a medley of several melodies.
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Most Irish tunes have an A part and a B part, and it's not uncommon for the second half of the B part to be similar to the second half of the A part.

    As we've discussed earlier, the tune to "Star of the County Down" is originally English; it goes back to a 17th-century carol, "Dives and Lazarus."
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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Wasn't there something about the difference between a single jig and a double jig being partly about the repetitions? or am I hallucinating (again)?
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    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    While it's true there are very many Irish tunes with A and B parts, which may or may not repeat, there are others with three, four, five or more parts. This can happen with jigs, hornpipes, reels and other types of tune.

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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Sorry, got the title mixed up, there. The Tune I am thinking of is "Star of the County Down"

    B, DE2E2E2 DED G2G2A2 GABAG DED2 D2

    That's the first phrase, or at least what I can remember off the top of my head.

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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    Wasn't there something about the difference between a single jig and a double jig being partly about the repetitions? or am I hallucinating (again)?
    Yes, there is a difference between a single jig and a double jig, but the distinction isn't related to repetitions. A double jig is mostly groups of three eighth notes, while a single jig has a lot of quarter note - eighth note patterns. Certain dances fit better to a single jig, others to a double jig. Dancers will often glare at you if they ask for a single jig and you play a double jig. Off She Goes is a good example of a single jig; Joy of My Life is a common double jig.

    To make things even more confusing, there are also single reels and double reels. But the distinction between a single reel and a double reel has nothing to do with the distinction between a single jig and a double jig, but is kinda related to repetitions. In a double reel, the A and B parts are both eight bars long, and played twice. In a single reel, the A and B parts are each four bars long, played twice. (Or some would say that in a single reel, the parts are each eight bars long, played once.)

    Or one might choose to ignore the goofy terminology and just have fun playing the tunes.

    Pete

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by ptritz View Post
    In a double reel, the A and B parts are both eight bars long, and played twice. In a single reel, the A and B parts are each four bars long, played twice. (Or some would say that in a single reel, the parts are each eight bars long, played once.)
    Wonder what special cases like The Sailors Bonnet (short A, long B) or Maids of Mt Kisko (long A, short B, long C) would be called, then...

    Or one might choose to ignore the goofy terminology and just have fun playing the tunes.
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Irish (and indeed Scottish) tunes usually have two parts, both of which are repeated. Sometimes (such as in the case of Scottish pipe tunes) there are more than two parts, but two is the norm.

    Please differentiate between a song tune (ie the melody of something which is sung with words) and something which is entirely an instrumental thing - eg an Irish reel. A song will probably not have quite the same structure as a fiddle tune.
    I notice that people sometimes use the word 'song' when they are actually referring to a dance tune - or indeed more than one dance tune played as a 'set' or medley. As always there are plenty of exceptions - ie Scottish Gaelic mouth music which often was used in the absence of actual instruments - but in general it is best to distinguish between 'songs' and 'tunes'.

    Fast tunes like reels, jigs and hornpipes usually have this two part structure. A slow air or a waltz may in fact have been originally a song and may not have the same structure as faster tunes.

    This is much more than a 'trend', as you suggest in the title of this thread, but is an established pattern which is very old and fundamental to the music.
    David A. Gordon

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    It is much more than a 'trend', as you suggest in the title of this thread, but is an established pattern which is very old and fundamental to the music.
    In fact, it can be traced as far back as the baroque, which was given a revival in Irish music by Turlough O'Carolan. Modern Irish dance tunes are just a faster version of that.
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    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noticing a bit of a trend with traditional Irish tunes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Wonder what special cases like The Sailors Bonnet (short A, long B) or Maids of Mt Kisko (long A, short B, long C) would be called, then...
    Art? ;-)

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