Octave Mandolin/Octave Mandola - beginner help please

[Fivetide]

Hi all, I've recently purchased an Octave Mandolin/Mandola. It's a Troubador Tamburlin; a pretty thing based on the generic flat top, all-wood jobs from Romania - but in a nice clean plain wood.

I have a lot of friends who play folk sessions, and although I can play tenor ukulele to a basic standard, for a long time I really wanted something more in keeping with the mainly Irish feel. Plenty of people I know have mandolins and some are very good melody players. But very few have access to a bouzouki, and nobody has an octave mandolin.

My ambition is/was to keep an OM tuned GDAE, gain a deeper and totally new sound from the uke, and learn a lot of chords. I'd like to learn to strum a few songs at home by myself, as well as to chip in to the general mix strumming along to jigs, reels, polkas and folk songs. Hopefully I can add a little melody later to addd highlights to the strumming. But other than knowing a few strumming patterns, the whole mandolin world is entirely new to my fingers.

Anyway.

I got the OM, I sorted out new strings and got the intonation working better by adjusting the bridge slightly, and all was going well. I grabbed a copy of the Dummies Guide to Mandolin, and of course I also found a bunch of great online resources. I started by learning a few basic chords - G, C, D, A, Em, Am, Dm, E7, A7... and all was well, but almost immediately I've got a problem.

The long fret spaces on the OM make it seemingly impossible for me to play some pretty common chords - notably F! I don't just mean I get a buzz because my muscle memory isn't there, I mean that even taking time to place my fingers, I just don't have a five fret stretch on the OM.

To be honest, it's made me a bit down-hearted really early on - silly I know. Am I missing something? I know I could 'turn it into' a short-scale bouzouki with different tuning and play around that way, but I really want to focus on a GDAE instrument for once, having been the odd-ball GCEA-chap for so long!

If you have a spare moment for a complete OM novice that needs a bit of encouragement and some guidance on achieving some early progress, I'd very much appreciate it.

Thanks very much indeed.

[Chip Booth]

You will commonly find yourself playing partial chords on an OM. There is no need to play all four courses all the time. Play the lower three courses or the lower 2 of an F chord. Also keep in mind movable three string shapes, in the case of F try playing 233x, the root F note being the 3rd fret on the D course.

It sounds like you are looking at basic open chord shapes right now, which were designed with the mandolin in mind with it's smaller scale. There are many many ways to play the same chord, all over the neck. You have only scratched the surface, there are plenty of ways to get the job done, so don't despair! Welcome to the Cafe.

[mrmando]

233x or 578x are perfectly acceptable F chords on the octave mandolin. All is not lost just because you can't reach 5301. And if you wanna get really crazy, there's always 10 10 12 13.

[LA Mando]

I concur with previous suggestions. I play a lot of partial chords, and I'll choose the lower strings if I'm playing with someone in the higher register, like fiddle or mandolin. If a guitar is in the group, I'll try to avoid overlap and head for the A and E strings, or do more cross picking on the lower so that I'm not simply being like another guitar. I'm also new on OM, so am anxious to hear what others have to say as well on this topic.

[Fivetide]

Thank you for your replies, which have already been very useful.

Funnily enough, I was at one of my children's guitar lessons after I posted yesterday, and she was being a shown an exercise on how to use partial chords in the middle of a song, because her hands are still a bit too small for some chord shapes -- so we both have similar problems (except I'm not going to grow any more).

I'm also going to check out my alternative shape options when I get a bit stuck, thank you - I think even the Guitar Toolkit app on my phone could be useful for that (it was for the uke).

I have also investigated a few changes to the OM to improve the sound and tuning. I've bought a set of D'Addario J80 strings to replace a tarnished set, but I'm also having to replace a broken tailpiece which is a bit of a shame (it has lost the cover and has jagged edges). I just ordered a pretty standard chrome job in the end, and that will go on when it arrives (local music shop didn't stock these). I also read elsewhere on the forum about changing out the bridge, but I've not done this yet. The current one appears to be a light coloured wood with a strip of hardwood (rosewood maybe?) on top. I had thought an ebony / bone bridge might be a better option, but many of the ones I see available are really intended for the curved top models, while the flat top ones I saw in the shop didn't look notably better than the one I have.

One other thing! The action seems rather high - without a micrometer I'd say it was about 2.5mm above the third fret and 3.5mm above the 12th. On a ukulele I would probably just file the nut a little and the bridge too, but there is an odd thing happening at the nut end of this OM. Instead of the strings bending back solely on the nut, they are also hard on an extra fret right at the top next to the nut. I'm a bit surprised by this (it looks very much like the arrangement in this image - http://tinyurl.com/ohegl2q

I guess this would mean filing just the bridge, in careful incremental stages instead? Anyway, thank you for your suggestions once again - gives me something to play with later today!

[Bertram Henze]

...but there is an odd thing happening at the nut end of this OM. Instead of the strings bending back solely on the nut, they are also hard on an extra fret right at the top next to the nut. I'm a bit surprised by this (it looks very much like the arrangement in this image - http://tinyurl.com/ohegl2q

I guess this would mean filing just the bridge, in careful incremental stages instead?

What you have there is called a zero fret, which is a good thing but should be just as high as the other frets, no more. 2.5 mm at the 3rd fret seems to be quite high, though. I am anticipating what others here will tell you: you need a setup.

BTW - As long as I can think back, I play F as 2301 - no painful stretch needed.

[Martin Jonas]

These Hora zouks and OMs can be pretty good instruments but need a setup -- they come out of the factory with absurdly high zero frets which need to be lowered to the same height as the other frets. Be very careful when doing this and ask a luthier if you're not confident, as it's easy to take it down to far or to have it not completely level in which case the strings will buzz. Also, the stock bridge that comes with them is not very good and tone will improve dramatically with a better bridge. I have a Hora zouk which I keep in FCGD as an ad-hoc mandocello -- in that tuning it's easy to sight-read bass clef if you're a mando player and many 'cello parts don't go below F. I have replaced the stock bridge with an ebony bridge with bone saddle, from a bridge blank made by Dave Hynds.

As for chords, partial chords are indeed the way forward. The easiest is to use power chords -- just play the tonic of the chords (i.e. the note after which the chord is named) and the note on the same fret one string higher. As long as you're tuned in fifths (GDAE, FCGD, DAEB or CGDA), that's a power chord. If you want a full chords, go one more string up and one fret higher to make a minor chord (e.g. 223x for A minor) and two frets higher to make a major chord (e.g. 224x for A major). These two chord shapes are movable all over the neck, are easy stretches on the OM or zouk and make every single major and minor key possible.

Martin

[Fivetide]

Brilliant! Lots of food for thought here, and the alt F is great. When the tailpiece arrives I'll fit that and fiddle with the current bridge again, but otherwise I will wait until I can drop it in for a proper setup at the LMS (if it's affordable). In the meantime, could anybody point me to some basic strummed songs/tunes that are pleasing for early days OM? Right now I'm just playing anything I knew on the ukulele while trying to forget old chord shapes! Also been playing 'King of Rome' by Dave Sudbury just as my first mando tune. I'd love anything Irish in pattern that isn't really difficult. I've surfed about a bit, but it's mostly too high end for me, and then I just end up watching geniuses on YouTube (already hooked on Sierra Hull after seeing her linked on here yesterday!)

[allenhopkins]

Another consideration, is that a capo is very useful on octave mandolin. You can shorten the scale, and thus the finger stretches, and you can sometimes convert difficult lead passages into easier fingerings. Not familiar with Hora instruments, but I've found that banjo capos work well on narrower-necked "big mandolins."

[Fivetide]

Hullo again. Today I asked a friendly mandolin surgeon to quote me for a basic setup of nut/bridge action, and he came back with a price of £85 as long as no major repairs were required. This is way out of my league for an instrument at this level. Does this price sound like the norm? Thanks.

[Bertram Henze]

£85 as long as no major repairs were required.

Sounds normal to me. It is hard to get decent playability below a certain sum - what you save on the price of the instrument, you'll lose to necessary measures afterwards.

If I were you, I'd carefully file that zero fret down until it's height is nearer to that of the other frets (but still slightly above!). That should take care of the bigger part of the action problem. Then I'd play it and learn to make the most of it, meanwhile saving money for an upgrade, so budget and skill can happily meet at the top and afford, say, a Fylde or something like it. Plus, it's fun all the way.

[Fivetide]

Thanks. Yeah, I've had fun this evening, gaining confidence just by not worrying about some of the stretchier chord shapes, and playing with abandon 'cos I'm alone in the place. It's damn loud, that's for sure. Is it considered a no-no to just use fingernails to strum an OM? I've got a big variety pack of picks, but I like the 'naked' strum sound too...

[Bertram Henze]

Is it considered a no-no to just use fingernails to strum an OM?

Those are steel strings - your fingernails will tell you sooner or later.

[Fivetide]

Another consideration, is that a capo is very useful on octave mandolin. You can shorten the scale, and thus the finger stretches, and you can sometimes convert difficult lead passages into easier fingerings. Not familiar with Hora instruments, but I've found that banjo capos work well on narrower-necked "big mandolins."

Banjo capo on its way.

[JH Murray]

For an octave mandolin, what should the string height be at the first, third and twelfth frets? Is there an acceptable range?

[Fivetide]

Apart from not having a professional setup, my OM is now in as good a shape as can be expected. I took off the old strings while cleaning all the fret and woodwork with some funky ukulele honey stuff I had knocking around. At the same time I tightened all the tuners, fitted a new shiny tailpiece, and got those new J80 strings on and staying in tune. I also fitted a strap button and got hold of a strap - not something I've ever used before. I even bought it a banjo gigbag (it was the only thing I could find that fitted perfectly. All-in-all it's now a perfectly workable instrument, albeit with a rather high action. It's just the human that needs to upgrade now, until I can justify that additional £85!

[Shelagh Moore]

Today I asked a friendly mandolin surgeon to quote me for a basic setup of nut/bridge action, and he came back with a price of £85 as long as no major repairs were required. This is way out of my league for an instrument at this level. Does this price sound like the norm? Thanks.

No. I would consider that a bit high for a basic set-up.

[Fivetide]

Just a quick update and possible change of direction. I took my now shiny and happy OM round to see a friend - one of those people who can play almost anything. He liked it but immediately retuned it GDAD and played it as a short scale Bouzouki. It sounded terrific. Is this perhaps the way to go? I have no idea, but I'd quite like to start cementing some basic chord shapes one way or the other!

[Bertram Henze]

He liked it but immediately retuned it GDAD and played it as a short scale Bouzouki. It sounded terrific. Is this perhaps the way to go? I have no idea, but I'd quite like to start cementing some basic chord shapes one way or the other!

You're in Andy-Irvine-Land with that - it worked for him, after all. OTOH, zouk tunings and chords rely very much on a capo and plenty of room to shift it; therefore, if that is your heaven, you might want to get a longer scale instrument.

[calden]

I would go for whatever tuning makes sense to you. I like GDAE because the intervals are the same and chord or melody shifts are simple. I also can transfer mandolin tunes easily.

Chords - Try lots of root/fifth 2 -finger chords, root drones, fifth drones. You will find that you can start sneaking in a third here and there as your hands get used to the distances. Besides, I think too much harmonic structure sounds awful in a lot of folk music. Partial chords and drone chords are beautiful. Let the melody instrument indicate the mode and key.