Bach E Major Prelude fingering

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I just got my copy of the new Mel Bay Bach E Major Prelude form the Partita No. 3 for Solo Violin Transcribed for Mandolin by Andrew Driscoll. So, now I have this, plus the sheet music from IMSLP, a tef file with notation and tab, the Mike Marshall version (which I forgot I already owned when I ordered the Mel Bay). The Mel Bay booklet comes with a CD of the Prelude played at normal human speed (perhaps not as nice a recording as, say, Marissa Carroll might have made playing her L&H), though I have learned a lot about the piece listening to and watching Thile's verison on YouTube.

I am interested in the fingering other players use for various parts of this piece. I have worked out my own fingering for certain parts based on watching Thile and Carroll in particular, as well as a few other youtube versions. One thing about the tef file, the Marshall book and this new book is the way they move up the neck in measure 9. For a long time, when I only had the sheet music, I tried to go up the E string, 0-2-4-5-7-9-11-12. I never found a smooth way of doing this. Then, and I don't recall but it must have been from watching Thile and/or Carroll, I realized that this measure need not depend on the smooth transition to playing up the neck during a run up a single string. So I began to play this by striking the open E, then moving my hand up and continuing the run of notes on the A: 9-11-12, then back to the E for 7-9-11-12. The extra time I gain makes this transition much, much easier for me.

I would love to hear from others where they might use alternate fingerings. From comparing Thile and Carroll's videos, I believe they play the section around measure 34 differently. I have been struggling with this sections off and on for a while and would love to hear what others have tried, what works, especially regarding fingering choices.

[jmp]

I don't have the music in front of me, so I may be missing something but from your description I would play the run as 7-9-11-12 on the A string and then 7-9-11-12 on the E-string. Pretty simple, same pattern on both strings, you can play that lighting fast. However, I don't know the rhythm or the points of departure and arrival so the optimum fingering depends on that.

[bratsche]

So I began to play this by striking the open E, then moving my hand up and continuing the run of notes on the A: 9-11-12, then back to the E for 7-9-11-12. The extra time I gain makes this transition much, much easier for me.

That's how you'd play it on violin, so I agree. As far as the "section around measure 34", I'm not sure what you're specifically asking (and I'm just thinking about this in my head, without music at hand).

bratsche

[Jake Howard]

Hey Franc, if you don't mind waiting a day or so, I can figure out all the fingering for Chris Thile's version if you would like.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Thanks bratsche, it is interesting to know the violin fingering for this. I am learning violin (Suzuki method) with my children, but we are all still working out of first position and will be for a while. I will try to formulate a more specific question about those measures around 34. I have tried playing certain parts sometimes going up the neck, other times with larger/more awkward reaches in the 1st position.

jmp, yes 7-9-11-12 on A then on E would work, but for me that presented the problem of ending the previous run with my fourth finger on the 7th fret of the E then hooping over to the 7th of the A with my first finger. I am sure people can do this, as well as the run all the way from open E to the 12th fret very smoothly. I just found the open E gives me a moment to move my hand up the neck.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Thanks Jake. I actually won't be getting to much done on this right now. I am back to work after a year long sabbatical, and have maybe 45 minutes or an hour a day, so I mostly work on other things. I don't know that Thile's fingering differs drastically from Marshall's, and I certainly don't assume I would be able to do it his way any better than any other way. But when my book arrived today, the tab got me thinking about how different people might play this different ways. What I really need is a nicer standard notation version of the piece, or a huge mangifying glass to put over my IMSLP print offs.

[Jake Howard]

I'll include the standard notation and the tab when I finish, it may be a bit easier to see (and I think I put it in correctly, but just in case, take my notation with a grain of salt)

[Franc Homier Lieu]

well, that would be pretty amazing. Thanks.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Just comparing the Marshall tab to the Driscoll. I have never looked at the Marshall before, but in measures 10 and 12 Mike has me playing up on the 16th fret! (I think I will go with Driscoll until I own a mandolin that sounds decent up there.) I am not a tab guy, just an excruciatingly slow reader of standard notation, but I think I will take some time to compare these two tab 'translations.' Driscoll actually includes fingering suggestions above the notation which helps. And Marshall and Driscoll differ on that section I vaguely alluded to above (an ascending pattern from 29-31 which then drops down low to start again in 32).

[JFDilmando]

MAJOR important to figure out what works for you and not get too worried about how someone else plays it.... what works on your mandolin for sound, what works for how your ear hears the sound on different strings, and what can your fingers grab with comfort and repeatably clean....
I have learned what Thiele, and Marshall can do..... simply put.... I can't. Doesn't bother me a bit.... power to you for tackling this piece of beauty.

[Jake Howard]

Hey! Alright, I finished it up, I pretty much gave you the fingerings for the difficult passages in the song. If you have any questions about it just let me know and I'll help. Also, if there is a major mistake sorry, I am pretty busy at the moment with school. There are a lot of difficult fingerings in this piece but most of them make sense if you follow them, Chris did almost all the fingerings for a reason (he didn't purposefully make it hard, trust me, it makes sense)! Thanks guys.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Thanks Jake! This is great. Going to sit down with this tonight. You must know this piece pretty well to be able to do this so quickly. Where did you get the score and tabs?

[Jake Howard]

I hope I can do this fast, it's what im going to school for! But I have a book full of Bach's Sonatas and Partitas, that's where I got the notation from. The tab was just copying and pasting the notation into a new measure, then adjusting the tab to get the correct fingerings. It's a fulfilling piece to play, very technically challenging and sophisticated, yet pleasant to the ears!

[bratsche]

Just out of curiosity for anyone who plays this, in the part from measures 17 to 28, what picking pattern do you find works best? (I played this on violin at least 40 years ago, but have always been daunted by the prospect of picking such passages, which seemed so easy to bow at the time.) Thanks for any input!

bratsche

[Jake Howard]

Give me a few minutes, I'll put up a video of the picking pattern. Just remember it is always down, up, down, up!

[Franc Homier Lieu]

bratsche,
Is it a principle of violin fingering applied to mandolin which is the reason why in measure 17, even though it is 16th notes alternating between G# and E, there is a transition to cross-picking three strings? Or is there some notation in the Bach score that indicates this? It is only one measure, but when I had only the notation and was learning this, I only switched to three strings in 18, when there are three different notes.

[Tom Wright]

The 3-string pattern is in the original manuscript---Bach liked string crossings. The purpose is mainly to keep a 4-note grouping, instead of 2 notes, and it sets up the continuation. But it also sounds cool. I pick it just like I bow it, alternating down-up.

I didn't miss it in Walter Carlos' synthesizer version ("Switched-On Bach"), which I loved. I often don't like it from violins, since the E string sticks out, typically, and draws my ear away from the strong beat. (When Chris Thile does it it works well.) You could try staying in 1st position and alternating the open E with a fingered E in the last spot (2-0-2-4). This gets your 4-note pattern with a simpler string crossing, and natural accenting. I've worked it up, staying in 1st position all the way, and it has a powerful sound, if less showy.

BTW, I like going up that first scale all on the E, shifting to 1st finger on 7th fret halfway through the bar.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Thanks Tom. I recall reading about various editions of the S&P in this interview with Thile:
http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20138/14899/

Almost bought the Barenreiter after I read this interview. Maybe I will pick up the other edition, the one with fingerings. Thile says he does not find the violin fingerings helpful for mandolin, but I think your point about the reason for the string crossings makes sense.

[Jake Howard]

I made a slowed down version of the picking you should use. Don't mind the sloppiness but the picking is how it should be done!

[bratsche]

It's definitely a 3-string crossing pattern. I find that DUDU is very awkward in these passages, so I'm surprised. Well, on second thought, I bowed it DUDU on violin, so I guess I shouldn't be (surprised, that is).

I guess I was hoping for an easier way to pick it at a faster tempo, like DDUU (following the string direction, if that makes sense). But that, too, is not optimal. Still, I can manage it faster this way (DDUU) than DUDU, which I can only pick at a snail's pace.

Darn. My left hand can play this, but my right hand doesn't want to cooperate.

bratsche

[bratsche]

Cross posted there, Jake.

Your slow version is still faster than I can do that! My hand just flies around too much, especially between the third course upstrokes and the second course downstrokes (I'm playing it on a mandola). I need to minimize the motion, and hit them more accurately with consistency.

That's the hardest thing about this movement! Everything else in it I can play about twice as fast as these passages.

Thanks,

bratsche

[Jake Howard]

Here it is again, just a little faster, don't mind the buzzing frets and misplaced fingers. This is more closer towards the Thile version...

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Thanks for these videos Jake. Bratsche's question reminded me of the cross picking lessons I read right here on the Cafe by Mickey Cochran (in the lessons under 'More Resources' on the main page). Cochran insists on using down/up/down/up in ALL cross picking and has some simple exercises which got me going. While I used to do the exercises, I never had much use for cross picking (I play alone, so there is little call for me to back anyone up) until I started to play this piece. Watching Thile you can see that this is exactly his technique.

[bratsche]

There's lots of cross bowing/picking in Bach - it's a "feature" of baroque music. If I had to do everything DUDU, I'd be in big trouble! I've more or less treated it like working out my bowings - if something sounds better and/or plays more naturally slurred than as single notes, that's what I go after with my pick. But then, I've never had any formal picking instruction. I've just been going on instinct for the most part, as well as reading others' thoughts here and trying to see if they might work better for me. Sometimes they do, and I have an "aha" moment. Other times not.

So I've been trying to do these passages in the Prelude as DUDU, and gained a little more speed and precision (not much). I also find I can play a couple measures really fast and accurate, but then it quickly deteriorates. Something about maintaining the repetition makes me tense up, and be unable to sustain the momentum for very long. It still feels very unnatural to my hand to do it this way. But I'll keep trying. I love threads like this one. (No, seriously. )

bratsche

[billykatzz]

Where can I locate a tef file on the Bach Prelude for Mandolin? Does it come with the Mel Bay book & CD?