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Thread: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

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    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Although mandolin has been around the Irish trad scene since at least the 1960s, there has been very little definitive information (compared to banjo) on styles, etc. of playing or comparison among the best players. This forum is as close as it comes and while it has been great in promoting and encouraging musicians to use the mandolin we have yet been able to discuss or define what makes great music in this genre on the mandolin.

    Part of the problem has been lack of good teachers but I think that this problem is coming to an end. I just had Martin Howley as a teacher at the Irishfest summer school and am looking forward to Marla Fibish at the O'Flaherty Retreat. These are two totally different players who are inspiring by their innovations and technique. I know there are plenty of good players out there, but they are not as influential as Marla is and there seems to be a dearth of discussion and dissection of the various styles of these great players.

    I just started a beginning banjo blog at http://itmbanjo.blogspot.com/ and wrote a small article about Martin's playing. I included a youtube video of Martin playing The One That Was Lost.



    I know there are other videos of Marla Fibish out there plus the ones that we have on this forum. I'm hoping that we can start a conversation about what we think of mandolin as a different instrument (than a small guitar or banjo) and how we can evolve as an instrument of Irish music (or related music for that matter.) I know we talk about it at times, but are there things you like or dislike about some of the great players we see? Are there things that make you sit up and notice that you would like to incorporate in your own playing? Are there things that must have been photoshopped because they seem impossible?

    These are subjects discussed in other forums (think Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, etc.) that encourage players to experiment and learn.

    Mike Keyes

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    Registered User Annette Siegel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I for one am quite fond of the Marla Fibish teaching & techniques, and therefore gravitate towards her; for the sound qualities/pulse that I'm after for my own Irish Mandolin playing.

    Believe it's a personal preference thing....good players usually have something we can all learn from.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I struggle between Roger Landes and Marla Fibish - I love listening to both. Roger does not have as much recording done with the mandolin, I believe, but he has a unique style that differs from his bouzouki playing. He treats the mandolin as its own instrument - not as a junior anything. But, in a workshop with him, he did demonstrate fiddle rolls and other techniques that could be accomplished on the mandolin.

    I think the attitude I see in Roger is that he tries to remain true to the music and not let the instrument get in the way.

    Cheers,
    Dave

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Not sure if I can say anything useful.
    I play OM, which is neither zouk nor mandolin and has to stand its own ground. My first issue (and, apparently, of mandolin players as well) has been being heard in a session, Irish music's wild habitat, and to survive there among predators like the pipes or the box. What we hear from Martin, Marla and others brings out the quiet intricate acoustic wickerwork the mandolin is good at, but it would get mercilessly drowned out in most sessions I attend and I have seen mandolin players turn up, give up and go.

    I was just not prepared to give up so easily, which is why I developed a combination of instrument customizing and heavy-handed playing technique, successful to the cause and still producing that Irish feeling (on good days) but very unlike the delicate style that would qualify as "mandolin".
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyes View Post
    Although mandolin has been around the Irish trad scene since at least the 1960s, there has been very little definitive information (compared to banjo) on styles, etc. of playing or comparison among the best players. This forum is as close as it comes and while it has been great in promoting and encouraging musicians to use the mandolin we have yet been able to discuss or define what makes great music in this genre on the mandolin.

    I'm hoping that we can start a conversation about what we think of mandolin as a different instrument (than a small guitar or banjo) and how we can evolve as an instrument of Irish music (or related music for that matter.) I know we talk about it at times, but are there things you like or dislike about some of the great players we see? Are there things that make you sit up and notice that you would like to incorporate in your own playing? Are there things that must have been photoshopped because they seem impossible?

    These are subjects discussed in other forums (think Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, etc.) that encourage players to experiment and learn.

    Mike Keyes

    Comparing the history of the banjo and the mandolin in irish music is always going to favour the former which would have been arguably present at least thirty or more years before mandolin's crept in under the folk boom. I would argue that even after that the mandolin has always been a secondary or sidelined instrument in ITM and that in itself explains the lack of teaching material.

    I would also forward the idea that if the mandolin has gained a firmer grip in ITM it is due to the rehabilitating influence of Bluegrass/Old Time, and in no small part the information exchange of the internet. Through the increasing awareness of the capabilities of the mandolin this has begun to move it, as an instrument, out from under the shadow of the tenor banjo, or indeed has begun to stem it's threatened obsolescence from the that divil the capoed bouzouki.

    (I'll give one personal anecdote - when i began learning mandolin internet was still in it's dial-up nappys, and the only advice on playing i could find was from guitar players and banjo players all of whom recommended light plectrums, stating the apparent difficulty of sounding triplets with a thicker plectrum - the internet quickly disabused me of that dogma )

    Personally speaking, and i have to try and be careful in how i word this, i do not see the mandolin as being a very suitable session instrument - it is often completely drowned out particularly when it finds itself in a large session. Tenor banjo's are suited to cutting through a noisy session/dance, a mandolin less so. In this sense the idea of equating ITM exclusively with the session plays against the mandolin's strengths and compromises it's possibilities. I am not sure if this can encourage bad technique but i am sure that many player's have compromised their playing in order to mount in volume in order to be heard in a large session.

    (There is a thread here on the use of resonator mandolins in Scottish music - for me, these instruments offer another potential evolution for the role of mandolin in sessions - but thats another topic)

    Where i do think the mandolin shines is in smaller groupings, solo, duo or trio, quartets - it is here that it can find space to voice their range. In essence i would advocate a return to a more chamber-music format, or at least encourage the idea that ITM does not always equate large pub sessions or ceilidh dancing.

    I have also started a thread on playing slow airs on mandolin as i think that the slow air might present the greatest challenge to mandolin playing in ITM.

    The mandolin can carry itself easily in those tunes where the roll of notes or pronounced rhythm propel the tune forward but it can begin to struggle with these slower pieces. Again i think this is where the mandolin has to come from beyond the banjo and look towards it's own legacy in other musical genres.

    For instance, i have heard and seen the use of sustained tremolo being frowned on in some circles as being old-hat, yet it is one of the distinct sounds on the mandolin. Also the use of chords - i remember one festival where, as a learner, a mere sprout, i played with a fellow who could rattle out tunes no trouble but did not know any chord shapes. Again this was probably due to the focus of tunes being played as single note runs, filled out by triplets, adapted banjo technique, but not one that works to the advantage of the full mandolin.

    The main teaching point i would encourage would be to advocate seeing the mandolin not simply as a means to play ITM but rather looking at the mandolin as an instrument that has its own history range and possibility one that is only beginning to be explored through ITM. The more we can look to find it's strengths in other genres the better we can establish the mandolin as a voice in ITM.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Not sure if I can say anything useful.
    I play OM, which is neither zouk nor mandolin and has to stand its own ground. My first issue (and, apparently, of mandolin players as well) has been being heard in a session, Irish music's wild habitat, and to survive there among predators like the pipes or the box. What we hear from Martin, Marla and others brings out the quiet intricate acoustic wickerwork the mandolin is good at, but it would get mercilessly drowned out in most sessions I attend and I have seen mandolin players turn up, give up and go.

    I was just not prepared to give up so easily, which is why I developed a combination of instrument customizing and heavy-handed playing technique, successful to the cause and still producing that Irish feeling (on good days) but very unlike the delicate style that would qualify as "mandolin".
    Just like that old saying 'Its the heavy hand that beats the session'

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Marmot View Post
    The more we can look to find it's strengths in other genres the better we can establish the mandolin as a voice in ITM.
    Indeed - mimicking other ITM instruments does not help. Ironically, I must admit that much of my own style was borrowed from other genres, especially Rock guitar - how that is related to ITM, however, must be left to others more proficient with forensic research.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    For me the biggest revalation has been using bowl-back mandolin on Irish traditional tunes with harp (part of our preparation for doing some classical pieces). In general I've been fairly underwhelmed with what I've heard of the use of the mandolin in ITM so far, however it's getting some decent use in Irish folk music and there are a few excellent players in other genres in Ireland. As for pub sessions I'd say I'd be tempted get a bluegrass F5 or National resonator out and go for the kick in the head approach forgetting about the subtleties or sweet tones. House sessions may give you more room for nuance and you'll find many players of all instruments hanker after an afternoon/early evening session where you get more space and can listen better and try out ideas more.

    For me the real beauty of the traditional tunes comes when you can spend time with them away from a session, maybe with one or two other instruments where the players are trying to explore the sounds they can make with/against the other instruments. But then of course someone else will sit in, things will start to get lively, a sustaining pint may be needed and you'd be reaching for the resonator in no time.

    The thing the mandolin really has it it can cut through if there's any acoustic space left by the fiddles and whistles, and here most session fiddlers are your allies as most but the very best hang about 1st or 2nd position. If you aim to play further up the fingerboard when the fiddles are playing in 1st or 2nd position you can add something up above there and still be heard.

    Even if the whistles are doing their shrill stuff nearby, you can use the bounce from the mandolin's inherent rythm be heard and really add life by putting a trip in the main step of the beat. There's also the tactic of cutting out suddenly at the end of a part or phrase. Then maybe come back in with just a flourish at the end of the next bit. Others will listen to that and often respond, if you're lucky catch an eye you can get them calling and you answering which adds a whole new dynamic to things. This really works if you're with a regular session crew who will tend to notice the changes more. But when the session night gets really underway you'll need the swap to a more punchy mandolin.
    Eoin



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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    As a small indication of the place mandolin plays in ITM, I'll submit Catskill Irish Arts Week 2013, which was under new creative management because of this and that. The offerings were heavy on flute and fiddle, as you'd think. They had four guitar teachers. There initially was no bouzouki teacher and no mandolin class. When questioned, the organizers said they would be willing to add the classes if the questioner could get enough people to sign up for one. A bouzouki class was organized at the last minute. There never was a mandolin class. I have to admit that the organizers, when I initially asked about it, did not appear to recognize mandolin as an ITM instrument (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt in allowing that mandolin was an instrument at all). Probably one of the most frustrating parts for me (I was the lone mandolin in Pauline Conneely's banjo class) was that two of the banjo players in that class were mando/mandola players and in at least two of the open sessions, I was surrounded by mandolins (there were five or six of us both times). I have to admit to being so naive that I thought mandolin was one of those session instruments that just -- well -- WAS, if you get my drift.

    I'd love to be able to add subtle mandoliny bits in session, which I do when my group plays, but in an ordinary session, I can barely be heard when I start a piece during a lull and a fiddle has to hear me to take up the tune. I'm content at this point to be just a piece of the general noise, but I know some very fine players who ought to be heard and seen as equal partners.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    ...in an ordinary session, I can barely be heard when I start a piece during a lull and a fiddle has to hear me to take up the tune.
    ...and then they run away on you with their own idea of what the next tune is supposed to be. Been there.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I agree entirely with M.Marmot (when did you move from Limerick?) There is nothing subtle about a full blown session.
    Subtlety has a definite place in a more refined arena. I prefer not to be "just a piece of the general noise" and therefore restrict,where I choose to play.
    I agree with Randi that the fine players should be heard and seen.Unfortunately there are other players who should be seen but not heard.
    I have discovered that three or four like minded individuals,can produce a more satisfying sound than a room full of noise!

    As regards Mike's op.I am reluctant to put anyone up on a pedestal,but I would welcome an interchange of views and styles.
    D MAC S

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    M. Marmot,

    I have to agree with you that the mandolin has not been very prominent in Irish music, but I have recordings of mandolins playing trad music in the 1960s. Barney McKenna supposedly went from mandolin to banjo for the reasons mentioned above (mainly volume in sessions) and Mick Moloney has an early record/CD of mandolin and banjo plus his mandolin playing with the Johnsons in the mid-60s.

    That being said, mandolin is about to come into its own after all these years. In this country I have to credit Marla Fibish for a lot of this and will really enjoy my time with her in October at the O'Flaherty retreat near Dallas. Martin Howley told our class that he thought it was about time for the mandolin to come out of hiding and that it was one of his goals to develop a mandolin style that was not banjo based.

    BTW, Martin is getting a Collings F style mandolin in the next month. Marla plays a 1921 (ish) A-2 model Gibson that is a killer. It's the player, not the instrument.

    Mike Keyes

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyes View Post
    M. Marmot,

    I have to agree with you that the mandolin has not been very prominent in Irish music, but I have recordings of mandolins playing trad music in the 1960s. Barney McKenna supposedly went from mandolin to banjo for the reasons mentioned above (mainly volume in sessions) and Mick Moloney has an early record/CD of mandolin and banjo plus his mandolin playing with the Johnsons in the mid-60s.

    Mike Keyes
    You'll certainly find mandolins in recordings from the sixties and the like, as i said they crept in the folk revolution, i don't know if they have much of history before that. Even with the mandolin in these early recordings i'd say the majority of them would have been based more for backing ballads/folk songs than anything else - not that there's anything wrong with that.

    I just read a quote from Mick Moloney on his time with the Johnsons

    "We were playing instruments that Comhaltas (Ceoltoiri Eireann) would have only been marginally connected to – maybe suspicious of – new instruments. The guitar was a new instrument. The tenor banjo, they didn’t know what to do with that. It was under the Miscellaneous Instruments at Fleadhs. The mandolin wasn’t even on the map. "

    But in terms of bringing the mandolin out from the banjo's shadow have you any opinions on the subject yourself - especially seeing as you do play banjo is there anything that you would immediately recommend changing when playing mandolin?

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by xiledscot View Post
    I agree entirely with M.Marmot (when did you move from Limerick?) There is nothing subtle about a full blown session.

    As regards Mike's op.I am reluctant to put anyone up on a pedestal,but I would welcome an interchange of views and styles.
    I took to the road towards the end of March this year - just about settled in at this stage.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    But in terms of bringing the mandolin out from the banjo's shadow have you any opinions on the subject yourself - especially seeing as you do play banjo is there anything that you would immediately recommend changing when playing mandolin?[/QUOTE]

    The short answer is no! I think that all instruments have their place.
    I play mandolin,tenor banjo and fiddle,all tuned gdae. This is because I am lazy,but also because it gives me flexibility.There are certain tunes that I think,sound better on a particular instrument.On your thread about slow airs,Eddie has a video of Roisin Dubh.I happen to like playing that on the tenor banjo.Perhaps it would not be everyone's choice.I play a set of tunes on tenor banjo The Banish Misfortune/Whinny Hills of Leitrim/Another jig will do.
    I can also play those tunes on fiddle and mandolin,but it just doesn't sound right.Fanny Power/Shebeg and Shemore/The blackbird sound best to me on the fiddle.
    I used to play in noisy places,like pubs,where the poor old mandolin would not stand a chance of being heard.
    In a controlled environment e.g. playing on stage.The mandolin comes into it's own,and really compliments and is complimented by other instruments.
    I think this is the way forward to promote mandolins in traditional music.Marla has been mentioned and I think her style and combination are a good example.
    I would suggest quality rather than quantity.If you are sick and tired of trying to make yourself heard in a "Jam",leave immediately and start your own session with like minded people.
    D MAC S

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Martin Howley will do a lot for Irish mandolin players. I think sharing the good examples here is a great way to raise awareness of the mandolin. Not all of us readers play only one instrument and we all talk to friends about stuff.
    Mike has a good idea here in that the goal is to improve the state of Irish mandolin playing. After reading some of the comments I wonder if sessiun playing as a topic gets in the way. Why not discuss what works, like a mandolin, mandola, banjo, guitar sessiun?
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyes View Post
    M. Marmot,

    I have to agree with you that the mandolin has not been very prominent in Irish music, but I have recordings of mandolins playing trad music in the 1960s. Barney McKenna supposedly went from mandolin to banjo for the reasons mentioned above (mainly volume in sessions) and Mick Moloney has an early record/CD of mandolin and banjo plus his mandolin playing with the Johnsons in the mid-60s.

    That being said, mandolin is about to come into its own after all these years. In this country I have to credit Marla Fibish for a lot of this and will really enjoy my time with her in October at the O'Flaherty retreat near Dallas. Martin Howley told our class that he thought it was about time for the mandolin to come out of hiding and that it was one of his goals to develop a mandolin style that was not banjo based.

    BTW, Martin is getting a Collings F style mandolin in the next month. Marla plays a 1921 (ish) A-2 model Gibson that is a killer. It's the player, not the instrument.

    Mike Keyes

    I thought Paul Brady was the mando player in the Johnstons...

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I find slow airs difficult on a tenor banjo, but well suited to the mandolin - double string tremolo and sustain (Mandela). Jigs, reels, horn pipes all are nicer on the TB, plus the volume helps. Mandola, tenor guitar, Octave Mandolin, for vocals backing... I play the aforementioned on mandolin in a contra band - plugged in... I'll play unplugged mandolin in a jam, but mostly for my own enjoyment, can't really be heard in a crowd, and a good crowd in a jam is a good craic... With Lot's of dropping out for a pint...

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    I thought Paul Brady was the mando player in the Johnstons...
    Actually so did I, he is certainly capable of it - but in the interview i was reading Mr Moloney stated that Mr Brady played guitar while it was Moloney himself who played mandolin... at least for one song

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Martin Howley will do a lot for Irish mandolin players. I think sharing the good examples here is a great way to raise awareness of the mandolin. Not all of us readers play only one instrument and we all talk to friends about stuff.
    Mike has a good idea here in that the goal is to improve the state of Irish mandolin playing. After reading some of the comments I wonder if sessiun playing as a topic gets in the way. Why not discuss what works, like a mandolin, mandola, banjo, guitar sessiun?
    I can understand your concerns - usually the demand for a topic is to stick with one topic and run with it until silly season kicks in on the later pages.

    However, when i did originally write about the need to think away from sessions i was not sure I'd get agreement but it seems to be a common enough observation - and i think that is revelatory of some of the problems facing evolving mandolin playing in Irish music.

    But, as we seem to have identified the challenge, it is probably a good time to try and state some preferences - mine i would say would be for duos/trios - one of my best mandolin memories is of two lads playing about a table in Crosses of Annagh, concertina and mandolin - that worked really well. They were later joined by a fiddle player and that worked grand too - fiddle and mandolin is great as Hayes and Cahill can testify.

    Also mandolin and flute - that can be magic too.

    The key, for me is the amount of space that the instruments give each other to work with - the more space shared the better.

    Of course another question is what techniques to favour when playing solo?
    Last edited by M.Marmot; Aug-28-2013 at 3:42am. Reason: errant comma

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Loud mandolins do exist, though really the fun is being a part of the whole sound instead of trying to dominate it.

    Being able to take a lead and be heard in a noisy or blustery jam is also a lot to do with confidence and carrying the tune well too.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    There are certainly tenor banjo players who use the mandolin as a "second brush", using tenor banjo technique and generally playing very staccato. I generally find that sounds ok, but seems to negelect the potential of the instrument.

    We mandolin players have lots of fun opportunities for chords, double stops, and things like rolls that require a bit more sustain than a banjo has to execute. We also can get a legato sound using hammer-ons and pull-offs, and make use of that nice woody low-end too. We also have a bit more spectrum in dynamics than a typical tenor banjo technique, softer and louder shades make nice beat emphasis. Jigs sound especially nice with a good picking rhythm & dynamics.

    Sometimes echoes of other instruments really suit the tune.. for example using a hammer-on technique in a polka that matches the way a fiddler would get two notes on a bow, or using some of the higher gracenotes in some of the cross-over Scottish tunes that you might hear on pipes.. those times they sound just right. Drones are really cool too.. or using alternate tunings fiddle or even bouzouki style (AEAE, GDGD, GDAD, (D)DAD, or even AEAC#) really works well.

    There's no lack of depth or capability on the instrument, the real fun is that it's much less established technique-wise than fiddles, pipes, flutes, etc!
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    After reading some of the comments I wonder if sessiun playing as a topic gets in the way.
    Pleading guilty, your honor. I had my own doubts. The sessions and their ways are a part of ITM but not all of it, and there are traditional instruments that shy away from their acoustic bullying, e.g. the very symbol of Irish music: the harp (if you see a harp in a session, you're too slow at drinking your Guinness).
    But I also kind of like the thundering session, that's what I am in for. I am pushing the instrument to my private goal, which is probably not somebody else's. Do not try that at home, as they say.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by danb View Post
    We mandolin players have lots of fun opportunities for chords, double stops, and things like rolls that require a bit more sustain than a banjo has to execute. We also can get a legato sound using hammer-ons and pull-offs, and make use of that nice woody low-end too.
    That's exactly why I left the banjo behind for good and got an OM. Changing the playing technique took much longer, though.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Marmot View Post
    But, as we seem to have identified the challenge, it is probably a good time to try and state some preferences - mine i would say would be for duos/trios - one of my best mandolin memories is of two lads playing about a table in Crosses of Annagh, concertina and mandolin - that worked really well. They were later joined by a fiddle player and that worked grand too - fiddle and mandolin is great as Hayes and Cahill can testify.

    Also mandolin and flute - that can be magic too.

    The key, for me is the amount of space that the instruments give each other to work with - the more space shared the better.
    I agree with all of these. Lets bring on the you tube videos! Let's talk about the good parts and start sharing this stuff!

    Last edited by DougC; Aug-28-2013 at 8:35am. Reason: I found the video
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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