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Thread: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

  1. #51
    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Chris Thile produces a wonderful round tone with this grip:



    It is the same grip that Marla Fibish likes, at least she told me that in a skype lesson. I'll find out in October at the O'Flaherty Retreat (http://www.oflahertyretreat.org/) when I take her class.

    The grip should be very light - the natural connection of the thumb and first finger at rest is enough to hold the pick as long as you have your thumb and finger there to counteract the force against the strings. You should not lose your pick that often with this grip.

    Thile holds his pick perpendicular to the body of the instrument but at an angle to the strings in the horizontal plane in order to get a rounder tone. It is harder to describe the system than to show it and he does so in this video about half way through:



    I've started to use this grip and tried to stay as loose as I can (which Enda and Martin also preach) in order to keep the tone and play the ornaments. It is a lot of hard work but I am slowly getting there.

    I like this grip and it seems to like a lot of mandolins.

    Mike Keyes

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    When I started getting serious about Mandolin, it was in the late 80's/early 90's in Newfoundland. I was fortunate to be surrounded by great traditional players who where incredibly generous/patient with a new player. As I was still figuring out the repertoire, I would often take on a Rhythm role,using closed voice bluegrass chords and chop right hand.
    I'd get a few dirty looks from the more staunch players, but nuttin' too bad. The odd time I'd get shot a puzzled look from across the table/stage, but for the most part, it was accepted. I had no idea it wasn't the traditional role...it just made sense...to me anyways.
    As I started learning more "Chewn's" (tunes), I kinda abandoned that rhythmic style,but over the last year,I've been doing it more & more, when playing with the Metis Fiddlers here in town.
    Sounds good/is Good !!

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Have not been watching these forums lately, and just found this thread. As to when mandolin came into Irish music, I refer to this quote:

    "Capt. Francis O'Neill refers to the mandolin in his "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" (1913). He writes of a Thomas F Kiley, a friend of Edward Cronin (who contributed many tunes to O'Neill's collections), "'The Connemara Fiddle,' as we facetiously termed the mandolin, was his favorite instrument, however. In playing Irish dance music he displayed a facility of execution almost inconceivable." "

    Does anyone have that book. I don't recall where I found this reference.

    Thanks,

    John

  5. #54
    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Certainly not among the earliest examples of Irish mandolin players, but the earliest video example I have found of a mandolin (and, heaven help us, an autoharp) playing traditional Irish music--in this case an instrumental version of the song "The Mountains of Pomeroy." Fun.

    Just one guy's opinion
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    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    It's possible that the mandolin gained broader acceptance in the ITM scene via the context of songs and song accompaniment with bands such as the Johnstons (with Mick Maloney and Paul Brady), the Dubliners (Barney McKenna), et al. Although mostly vocal groups, those guys could certainly blast out the tunes, too, which provided a more mainstream path for the mandolin into the scene in general. Just a thought.
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  8. #56

    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    The most popular mandolin player (in a ballad group) when I was growing was Derek Wardell of the Wolfe Tones. He exclusively played the mandolin on all their songs. Derek was my inspiration and the main reason I took up mandolin.


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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I almost feel like a thief in the night posting on this thread, almost... unwelcome amongst all of the experience, but, I will second a lot of the suggestions here as a listener of music-- mandolin and guitar do go rather well. I'll post a link of a couple guys playing "for the star of county down" as an example. The mandolin isn't strictly doing melody, but it sounds fairly good anyways:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2umAp2qZZgM

    I'm not exactly sure what the mandolin is doing here, but it sounds nice when going with the guys voice and guitar.
    I love the mandolin as an instrument in it's own right and after playing it for almost 5ish months, I've really fallen in love with it and learned alot about music. I don't think of it as just a tiny guitar and proudly tell people that It is a mandolin.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Guitar and mandolin. Yup, a good bass - treble combination. They are just strumming chords in Star of the County Down - but it really works.

    Another favorite of mine is Bouzouki and Mandola or mandolin. Brian McDonagh (mandolin) and Michael Holmes strum too but with amazing style and rhythm. Check them out in the Irish super band called Dervish.






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  13. #59
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Why have they locked them in a jail? Be sure to take care (and a toothbrush) if you're ever asked to a session in Penn

    For me Bazouki/Octave sound has already been well pegged out since the 70s in trad, with the lovely low twang hitting the main rythm and up-pick with less bass and higher overtones taking in the off beats. I've often heard it playing against the bodhran role with one backing out to make space for the other to jump in and pick up. I think for my ear the mandolin really needs to be looking to the flute and fiddle and seeing what space there is to compliment their roles.

    If you could get a tame fiddler and flautist to practice with you could really work something great out there, maybe with people passing the tune between them so only two are going full-bore at any time and they come in and out in a sequence.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    This talk of bouzouki and percussion reminded me that Luke Plumbs album - A Splendid Notion - shows a great use of the mandolin coupled with a sympathetic percussive backing. Its very spare album but the music is immense.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I can't believe that i'm about to offer this one up - but - listening to Hamilton De Holanda and Stefano Bollani, and i've been reminded that mandolin and piano can sound pretty damn good together - was often used in ragtime and blues(?) tunes, i believe.

    I'm not a big fan of piano in trad so i can't offer any good examples of that pairing - i don't even know if there is - there must be, no?

  16. #62
    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Piano can be great paired with the mandolin. It's probably more common in the jazz context, but it sounds good for trad tunes, too.

    I'm not familiar with any mandolin-piano duets playing traditional Irish music exclusively, but mandolin and piano are very common elements in contradance bands--typically with a fiddle and/or accordion or wind player rounding out the sound. Most "northern" bands playing for contradances include a fair number of traditional Irish tunes in their repertoires.

    Piano and mandolin work together really well in the dance-band context, and can provide a lot of lift and drive to the rhythm section. I've played with loads of great piano players over the decades who really know ITM well, including Paul Machlis, Peter Barnes, Laurie Andres, Daniel Steinberg, Mary Cay Brass, Charlie Hancock, and many others. In fact, I played a gig last week with a great Irish piano player named Eamonn Flynn--who regularly plays with the Black Brothers band. He plays ITM, jazz, pop, or anything you can imagine.

    There are some other great piano players playing pure ITM--Charlie Lennon comes to mind--but the instrument is much more common in Scottish, Shetland, Cape Breton, and Québécois scenes, which are all bursting with pianists who really know the tunes and how to back them up. Mandolin isn't altogether common in any of those scenes, but there are great examples of mandolin and piano sounding great together in each.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Andy Thorburn is a great piano player in the North of Scotland who has played with loads of people.

    On my CD The Frozen River Andy and I do some mandolin/piano things. Not Irish, it's true, but still ...
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    Andy Thorburn is a great piano player in the North of Scotland who has played with loads of people.

    On my CD The Frozen River Andy and I do some mandolin/piano things. Not Irish, it's true, but still ...
    I don't know about the O.P.s opinion on this but personally speaking i would'nt be too doctrinaire on the 'Irish' side of things - sure, Donegal shares some powerful connections with scottish music - i think the advantage that mandolin has in a lot of traditional repertoire is that as a relative late-comer to most trad parties it can afford to dip and dive into whatever makes sense with respect to the music repertoire.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Kotapish View Post
    Piano can be great paired with the mandolin. It's probably more common in the jazz context, but it sounds good for trad tunes, too.

    I'm not familiar with any mandolin-piano duets playing traditional Irish music exclusively, but mandolin and piano are very common elements in contradance bands--typically with a fiddle and/or accordion or wind player rounding out the sound. Most "northern" bands playing for contradances include a fair number of traditional Irish tunes in their repertoires.

    Piano and mandolin work together really well in the dance-band context, and can provide a lot of lift and drive to the rhythm section. I've played with loads of great piano players over the decades who really know ITM well, including Paul Machlis, Peter Barnes, Laurie Andres, Daniel Steinberg, Mary Cay Brass, Charlie Hancock, and many others. In fact, I played a gig last week with a great Irish piano player named Eamonn Flynn--who regularly plays with the Black Brothers band. He plays ITM, jazz, pop, or anything you can imagine.

    There are some other great piano players playing pure ITM--Charlie Lennon comes to mind--but the instrument is much more common in Scottish, Shetland, Cape Breton, and Québécois scenes, which are all bursting with pianists who really know the tunes and how to back them up. Mandolin isn't altogether common in any of those scenes, but there are great examples of mandolin and piano sounding great together in each.
    I'll certainly try and research some of those names - thank you.

    The only ITM piano player who comes to my mind would be one of the Vallely lads, Caoimhin.

    I think he's been on that Transatlantic Sessions programme with Aly Bain a few times.

    I'm not sure of this but i think that the piano in ITM garnered a bit of a dubious reputation back in the day - or recently - who can tell -

  20. #66
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Check out Brian McGrath's playing with De Dannan, John Carty, et al. He's the favourite piano player of many great Irish musicians and is also a first rate tenor banjo player.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Marmot View Post
    I'm not sure of this but i think that the piano in ITM garnered a bit of a dubious reputation back in the day - or recently - who can tell -
    You may be thinking of a very specific example, which is the general feeling about the piano backing for Michael Coleman's fiddle recordings in New York City from the 1920's and '30's. These recordings are considered early classics, but the hired piano players apparently knew nothing about Irish traditional music, and it shows. The rhythm is terrible, and they play these bouncy major key chords behind "modal" fiddle tunes. It's a trainwreck, but the fiddling is a very important example of what Irish traditional music (fiddling, at least) sounded like at the time, so you have to mentally block out the piano to hear what Coleman is doing.

    Piano players got a bad rap from that series of recordings, and some of it may have stuck over the years. The Bothy Band had an electric piano back in the '70's, but keyboards don't seem very common in contemporary Irish performance bands. Maybe it has something to do with the Rise of the Guitar into musical dominance in the post-60's-70's era? Guitars and pianos don't usually mix that well.

    On the other hand, piano seems like almost the default backing instrument for Cape Breton music. The kids in musical families often learn both piano and fiddle, and play both equally well. It's a treat to see musicians like Andrea Beaton, Natalie MacMaster, and Troy MacGillivray switch back and forth between fiddle and piano during their gigs.
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  22. #68

    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    The Portland Collection 1 and 2 features Mandolin (Clyde Curley), Piano (Susan Songer) and Violin (George Penk). The interplay of the instruments is astounding and there are a lot of Irish tunes.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    The Portland Collection 1 and 2 features Mandolin (Clyde Curley), Piano (Susan Songer) and Violin (George Penk). The interplay of the instruments is astounding and there are a lot of Irish tunes.
    As a contra dancer, I have to add our own John Goodin, who plays mandolin (and contributes to mandolin cafe and the Classical Mandolin Society of America). He plays with Patrice Pakiz on piano in a band called Contratopia. They have also fiddle and concertina and their arrangements include the mandolin with wonderful creative flair.
    Maybe John can say something here about their Irish tunes.
    http://www.contratopia.com/Cgroup.htm

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Around these parts, it's pretty usual to have keyboards with ITM, mostly because of Brendan Dolan (and his late father, Felix). I can see where that might just be specific to our tiny corner of NY/NJ/Ct though
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    There is lots of piano accompaniment in Scottish and Irish dance music.

    It is the combination of mandolin and piano which is less common.
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Since ITM became a loud and noisy pub event, leaving the quiet and delicate harp in the dust, the harp got dressed up as a loud and noisy avenger and is now called The Piano.

    There would have been other ways, though.
    Last edited by Bertram Henze; Sep-19-2013 at 3:18am.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    David Grisman has done a CD with jazz pianist Denny Zeitlin - New River.

    Not Irish of course, but nice to hear only piano and mandolin.

    http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1848274
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  31. #74
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    You may be thinking of a very specific example, which is the general feeling about the piano backing for Michael Coleman's fiddle recordings in New York City from the 1920's and '30's. These recordings are considered early classics, but the hired piano players apparently knew nothing about Irish traditional music, and it shows. The rhythm is terrible, and they play these bouncy major key chords behind "modal" fiddle tunes. It's a trainwreck, but the fiddling is a very important example of what Irish traditional music (fiddling, at least) sounded like at the time, so you have to mentally block out the piano to hear what Coleman is doing.

    Piano players got a bad rap from that series of recordings, and some of it may have stuck over the years. The Bothy Band had an electric piano back in the '70's, but keyboards don't seem very common in contemporary Irish performance bands. Maybe it has something to do with the Rise of the Guitar into musical dominance in the post-60's-70's era? Guitars and pianos don't usually mix that well.

    On the other hand, piano seems like almost the default backing instrument for Cape Breton music. The kids in musical families often learn both piano and fiddle, and play both equally well. It's a treat to see musicians like Andrea Beaton, Natalie MacMaster, and Troy MacGillivray switch back and forth between fiddle and piano during their gigs.
    Those Coleman recordings do crop up frequently on researching the subject - and you are right, the piano is never given many kind words.

    I remember adapting myself to the, was it a clavichord, on The Bothy Band recordings, i think it was the slightly more harpsichord sound they had that endeared it to me - that and well, it was The Bothy Band.

    I have thought the decline of the piano in trad would have gone hand in hand with the decline of pianos in parlors and barrooms - when i was a kid not a lot of places that i know of could boast an upright piano especially not one in tune.

    Guitars, would have proven handier... tis true.

    Funnily enough it seems that piano may have dwindled just about the same time that the rhythm sections of trad sessions bulked up.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Kotapish View Post
    Certainly not among the earliest examples of Irish mandolin players, but the earliest video example I have found of a mandolin (and, heaven help us, an autoharp) playing traditional Irish music--in this case an instrumental version of the song "The Mountains of Pomeroy." Fun.

    hmm... i smell a skiffle band in mufti

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