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Thread: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

  1. #26
    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I think a lot of the points brought up make a lot of sense. The mandolin is not a little banjo, it is not a little guitar (to quote Andy Statman) and it is not a fiddle - although it shares more with the fiddle than the banjo.

    Mandolins have so much potential especially playing music in an expressive way as shown from that Modern Mandolin Quartet video. There is no ITM rule that says mandolins have to be little banjos. They can be raucous or sweet, loud or soft as needed, play chords, double stops, and all the other left hand and right hand techniques we have or they can find a new but in-the-tradition way to play Irish music the way every other instrument introduced has done taking advantage of the peculiar assets of the mandolin.

    Roger Landes has been working with adapting fiddle and pipe ornaments to the mandolin, Dan B has a number of CDs out there with his interpretations (and a wonderful knowledge of mandolins in general), and there are a lot of great videos with amazing ideas out there. We need to make them more accessible and have this conversation. (I'll see if I can find my Roger Landes tapes and ask Roger if I can publish them.)

    I'm inclined toward the Martin Hayes school of Irish music but have found times when speed or bouzouki like backup has worked very well. Most of the time this is either on stage or in small groups/sessions of fewer than six people all of whom are not trying to the invertebrates in the walls. The band I play with has a harp and we found that the harp/mandolin combination added a whole new dimension that the rest of the band could use for a new sound. I played a gig at the Milwaukee Irishfest with mandolin alone (my banjo imploded after one lag screw failed) and we got wonderful reviews about our sound.

    WeBanjo3 is experimenting with two mandolins, fiddle and guitar in some tunes and they use mandolin with songs. Using mandolin for song backup and interlude has been around for years in Irish music, of course.

    Here is Brian McGillicuddy teaching two jigs:



    Mike

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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I've actually played with a harp (and a hammered dulcimer) in session and those things can get pretty loud. Maybe the problem isn't necessarily the competition from the other instruments (although I'd rather NOT sit next to the pipes) as it is with the ambient noise of where the session itself is held. We do our session in the back room of the Gaelic American Club and it's just us, and my mandolin is hear-able even when I'm doing straight melody (and it's wild to play "solo" with, say, five whistles, which happened last week for a tune or two); however, when we move to the bar and with the echo of the room and the competition from the drinkers (at least they turn the sound off the TV's), I can barely hear myself or even the fiddler across the circle from me.

    Playing out, of course, means we're miked, and they usually put a mike on my mandolin even if some of the other instruments go without. I've got a church ground-breaking gig with my-husband-the-guitar-player and a flute player next Sunday and that's a nice combination, too. There's no question smaller is better control and balance, but, as has been mentioned, I do enjoy being part of a raucous session even if I can't hear myself (or my screwups!).

    This discussion has shaken me up from the haze of simple melody playing, though; I occasionally do a chord or two if I have the time and inclination during our tunes. I see I need to up the game!
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyes View Post
    The band I play with has a harp and we found that the harp/mandolin combination added a whole new dimension that the rest of the band could use for a new sound.

    Mike

    I had the pleasure of playing with harp on a few occasions - i even had the unintentional compliment of the fiddler confusing the sound of the mandolin with the harp. I had started moving the plectrum away from the bridge, bringing it further up toward the neck to get a rounder sound, the change in tone worked well complimenting the sound of the harp.

    There was an Irish group 'Bumblebees' that often use the harp and mandolin in combination - actually there sound is pretty unusual and plays up the mandolin quite well.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I was looking at some videos from Comahltas, because their competitions often end up (unintentionally?) promoting certain playing/dancing/singing styles above others - and i found a fine video from this little fellow

    http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...sean_kelleher/



    Heres another one with his friend on fiddle

    http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...nd_sean_kelleh er/

    It would be interesting to see what the trend, if any, is for comhaltas mandolin winners - as this often has an impact on the development styles and of teaching practice

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Also, an interesting note was sparked by these videos:

    One of the many current debates in ITM is on the merits of teaching of a generalized Irish style as opposed to one that is based in a specifically regional style.

    I was wondering of the teachers mentioned just what they advocate? A general of specific/regional approach?

    The mandolin is placed so that it would not have any real tradition, as such, but mandolin playing might still draw from regional fiddle styles.

    On that note, does anyone here have preferred regional style or even one that they think would suit the mandolin better than others?

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Marmot View Post
    I was looking at some videos from Comahltas, because their competitions often end up (unintentionally?) promoting certain playing/dancing/singing styles above others - and i found a fine video from this little fellow

    http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...sean_kelleher/



    Heres another one with his friend on fiddle

    http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com...nd_sean_kelleh er/

    It would be interesting to see what the trend, if any, is for comhaltas mandolin winners - as this often has an impact on the development styles and of teaching practice
    The second link was defunct - here is the video.

    The CCE performances always have a strange classroom feeling to them (for context: school is where you don't learn about life, IMHO), music under laboratory conditions, good for analysis - taking things apart but not for putting them together again.

    I am afraid if there once were regional styles within Ireland, they have been washed over with more global regional styles - the same reels sound different if played in Dublin, Montreal, Boston, Düsseldorf or Tokyo. It's not even "Continental Ceilidh" (Christy Moore) any more, it's "Planet Diddle-ee-dee".
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    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    This is an interesting discussion. I grew up playing traditional music (it was in the family) and have never had any formal musical education on the mandolin, tenor banjo or any other instrument, nor have I particularly tried to copy any particular style or player. I was told some 25 years ago by someone who ought to know about these things that I play in a pronounced "Clare" style even though I myself am from Co. Sligo and grew up in London. I can only suppose I have listened to such a variety of ITM and played in so many sessions that I have just "absorbed" influences from all around. These days the only thing I try to do is to interpret the melody in a tasteful and sympathetic way... and that can vary from day-to-day.

    For what it's worth, my feeling is that it doesn't really matter what, if any, regional style you choose to follow on the mandolin... I think regional styles matter in their own context. When I'm teaching mandolin I tend to concentrate on technique and giving the player the tools to be able to interpret a tune as they feel. Certainly I don't try to impose my or any other style... tunes evolve and, in my opinion, generally benefit from that process.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/com..._sean_kelleher

    Cian O’Sullivan and Seán Kelleher! These kids have it! Comhaltas really has the best examples. This video is worth examining in detail. If we are going to advance the Irish mandolin playing in the world, then we'd better start here.

    They are playing in unison and both are doing the same ornaments at the same time. Rolls, cuts, triplets. I'd have to watch again a few times but I'm guessing that the mandolin is doing some triplets when a bowed triplet or short roll happens on the fiddle.

    The mandolin is not doing counter point or rhythm at all. The fiddle has all the 'back beat' due to some really good bow technique, he speeds up the bow at the end of the stroke. (classical bowing is the opposite!?)

    Mandolin can't do that of course so we need to get the pulse going with some accents on the two's and four's in reels.
    Last edited by DougC; Aug-30-2013 at 8:58am. Reason: added the video

  9. #34
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Sean Kelleher is a young fella to watch, such great feel to his playing, but I do tend to see a common thread amongst young ones playing the mandolin in Comhaltas videos - lots of playing down nearer to the bridge vs. up near the fretboard, which to me seems like possibly the influence of tenor banjo playing. You don't tend to find many (if any) dedicated trad mandolin players back home, so many of these young people are tenor banjo players as well. Similarly here in the states I've often seen folks who are mandolin players pick up tenor banjos and play way up by the neck vs. down nearer the bridge - tenor banjos aren't mandolins and mandolins aren't tenor banjos! Some folks argue that as there's no "tradition" of mandolin playing in ITM that the skies the limit and anything goes, but I do still think it's important to get the best sound out of your instrument possible to maximize all its capabilities and truly carve out it's place in the tradition.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    Sean Kelleher is a young fella to watch, such great feel to his playing, but I do tend to see a common thread amongst young ones playing the mandolin in Comhaltas videos - lots of playing down nearer to the bridge vs. up near the fretboard, which to me seems like possibly the influence of tenor banjo playing. You don't tend to find many (if any) dedicated trad mandolin players back home, so many of these young people are tenor banjo players as well. Similarly here in the states I've often seen folks who are mandolin players pick up tenor banjos and play way up by the neck vs. down nearer the bridge - tenor banjos aren't mandolins and mandolins aren't tenor banjos! Some folks argue that as there's no "tradition" of mandolin playing in ITM that the skies the limit and anything goes, but I do still think it's important to get the best sound out of your instrument possible to maximize all its capabilities and truly carve out it's place in the tradition.
    I was just about to post that it sounded like tenor banjo technique, and you got there first.

    Couldn't agree more... it's fine playing, but I would hate to think that this is the only way forward for mandolin in Irish traditional music. We're at a disadvantage in so many areas compared to the other traditional instruments (chiefly in the realm of sustain, and articulation applied to a sustained note), but there are still a few tricks up our collective sleeves that I think can bring something to the music.

    Double and triple stop harmony, for example, which I've been trying to do more of, lately. That's a technique you don't hear much, if at all, with tenor banjo. Well, harmony itself is foreign to the music (outside of the harp tradition, maybe). But I'm thinking of what fiddlers like Kevin Burke and some of the Scottish fiddlers do with double stops, here and there. Button box players are also worth listening to, for what they do with double stops and occasional chord-like embellishments.

    Chris Thile said some interesting things in his recent interviews about the Bach project that could apply to how we approach ITM when we're "not playing a fiddle," or a similar sustaining instrument. For example, the comments about holding a note (with even a little sustain) while another note is being played. This technique wouldn't be heard in a session, but I think most of what we can talk about in terms of improving the state of mandolin playing won't apply to sessions. Maybe that's why Comhaltas encourages the tenor banjo approach? It's a style where the main ornaments (trebles) are loud and percussive enough to be heard in a session. But there's more to playing mandolin than trebles, I think.
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    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    For example, the comments about holding a note (with even a little sustain) while another note is being played. This technique wouldn't be heard in a session
    ? (I use it a fair bit). Personally, I think the Comhaltas approach is a bit prescriptive although, of course, very many fine players have emerged from that system.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moore View Post
    For example, the comments about holding a note (with even a little sustain) while another note is being played. This technique wouldn't be heard in a session
    ? (I use it a fair bit).
    I should have said, "wouldn't be heard in the session I attend." Which usually includes two pipers, so....
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Ah! That makes sense!

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    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Martin Howley, Enda Scahill, Darren Moloney, Gerry O'Connor, and most of the other banjo and mandolin teachers I have had all talk about leaving a finger down as you go to the next note in order to sustain that note. But you are right, it would not be heard in a session. What that idea, and others like it, would do is help you develop your style. I'll post a video of Martin showing how you can incorporate double stops and chordal sounds in your music (assuming I can find it) in the near future.

    As for young Sean, he looks like he is having more fun playing with his fiddler friend and you can see and hear more animation even though he is not as precise as he is with the mandolin solo. He has a lot of time to develop and his teacher is giving him a lot of tools to use when he matures as a mandolin player. Enda pointed out in his class that he would often "go wild" when he was young and put off the Comhaltas judges because he strayed out of the envelope of "good taste" and acceptable technique. Now he teaches students to win those contests but encourages them to take their precise and accurate technique and make something of it.

    I found it. This is Martin playing Dinnie O'Brien's reel. In the third iteration he uses some chordal emphasis and a very brief duo style (sort of) as a way to change the music and make it more interesting.



    I'll post another one soon.

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    Last edited by mikeyes; Aug-30-2013 at 1:21pm.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyes View Post
    Martin Howley, Enda Scahill, Darren Moloney, Gerry O'Connor, and most of the other banjo and mandolin teachers I have had all talk about leaving a finger down as you go to the next note in order to sustain that note. But you are right, it would not be heard in a session.
    On frequent occasions, I can leave a ring finger on the 5th and let the next lower open string drone along while my index is busy on the next higher, and that is audible unless three guitar players from hell drown it out. A typical example is the B-part of Otter's Holt.
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    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Here is another Martin Howley video this time playing the lovely reel Ormond Sound (I think by Paddy O'Brien) in which he demonstrates slide, hammer-ons and more chordal stuff.



    And here are more variations on the same tune:



    Mike Keyes
    Last edited by mikeyes; Aug-30-2013 at 3:11pm.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Here is another one of Martin teaching a variation of the One Who Was Lost. the variation is written on the blackboard behind him and it goes:

    X:1
    K:D
    |cdd Gdd | Fdd EdD |



    Mike Keyes
    Last edited by mikeyes; Aug-30-2013 at 4:35pm.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Here is the second day of Martin's class where he went into more variations on Dinny O'Brien's Reel (tThe Last House in Connacht)



    You can see that he is getting used tho this mandolin (it belonged to Enda Scahill) and he has moved up to the sweet spot getting more tone and more dynamics from the instrument. He talked about having a very loose grip on the pick (a Blue Chip, by the way .35) and relaxing into the music.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I like that Martin does some drone notes along with the melody. Fiddlers do this and I don't see mandolin players do it with some cross picking. He does a lot of triplets and trebles, (triplets up a scale). And his back beat is very natural.

    The kids video BTW, was remarkable because they played all the ornaments 'in sync'. I saw the banjo technique too but the fiddle bowing just blew me away.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyes View Post

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    O.K. - thats out of the way, now - thank you for posting these videos (and for Mr. Howley for sharing his expertise)

    There sure is a lot going on - i can see why you would need a recording device at one of these classes.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    The kids video BTW, was remarkable because they played all the ornaments 'in sync'. I saw the banjo technique too but the fiddle bowing just blew me away.
    I liked the communication between them 'Theres one bit where the mandolin player looks up 'Now?' and the little fiddle player shakes his head vigorously 'No, hold on a bit' - that just cracks me up.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    Sean Kelleher is a young fella to watch, such great feel to his playing, but I do tend to see a common thread amongst young ones playing the mandolin in Comhaltas videos - lots of playing down nearer to the bridge vs. up near the fretboard, which to me seems like possibly the influence of tenor banjo playing. You don't tend to find many (if any) dedicated trad mandolin players back home, so many of these young people are tenor banjo players as well. Similarly here in the states I've often seen folks who are mandolin players pick up tenor banjos and play way up by the neck vs. down nearer the bridge - tenor banjos aren't mandolins and mandolins aren't tenor banjos! Some folks argue that as there's no "tradition" of mandolin playing in ITM that the skies the limit and anything goes, but I do still think it's important to get the best sound out of your instrument possible to maximize all its capabilities and truly carve out it's place in the tradition.

    Cheers,
    Jill
    Aye, one of the things i kept thinking was 'I bet that as he grows older he'll "graduate up" to tenor banjo or bouzouki' - its one of the frustrating aspects of Irish mandolin that i have seen is that it's often used as a training instrument.

    By the by, just the East Galway thing reminded me - another grand album for Irish mandolin 'Weeds in the Garden' by Muintir Lewis. http://thesession.org/recordings/1420
    Last edited by M.Marmot; Aug-31-2013 at 5:01am. Reason: linkage

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Martin Hayes and Denis Cayhill do it with a slight nod but thoes kids make me laugh too.

    And as for the mandolin being a stepping stone to another instrument I think WE right here are developing a different attitude. We are here to 'bring the mandolin out of the closet' and do what works for a mandolin. That is, to have smaller sessiuns or sessiuns with just strings.

    Speaking of what works for mandolins. Triplets work. They are clear and loud. Hammer on's and pull off's are somewhat risky. Chris Thiele said the same in a recent interview about Bach trills.
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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    I think that a lot of Mr Thile's comments for his recent album do make a lot of sense for the aims of this thread...

    I also got a kick out of how the folks here could spot banjo technique on those mandolin videos - knowing that sort of thing is beyond me.

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    Default Re: The State of Irish Traditional Mandolin Playing

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Marmot View Post
    I also got a kick out of how the folks here could spot banjo technique on those mandolin videos - knowing that sort of thing is beyond me.
    I saw it, too - there is this way of planting the picking hand wrist (look at Darren Maloney for comparison), doing triplets exactly where a banjo player would do them and the absence of doublestops.
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