My Gibson Master Model Story

[f5loar]

Color looks close to the Feb. '23 Loars that are called "light tobacco" Cremona burst. I would add just about anyone who builds a F5 copy as able to do set ups correctly. That's the key is them knowing about mandolins not guitars or banjos or Les Pauls! That list is too long to list here.

[vegas]

But then of course quantum physics definitely do not apply to mandolins either. Just saying.

I think it shows certain things regarding mandolins are much like certain things about religion. Some people are going to believe they hear angels while others feel improved hearing is only provable through the rigorous application of science.....you know, the same way the rigorous application of science led the world to better appreciate great works of art. I'm kidding a little here, and for the record, I was a college science major. I am a FIRM believer in the scientific method.

The funniest and most illuminating part of this story is how one of the respected luthiers at Gibson suggested applying the Tone-Rite to improve sound and stated matter-of-factly a "breaking in" period was necessary to bring a mandolin up to speed. So is that snake oil salesmanship or experience talking?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[padawan]

(snip)...The funniest and most illuminating part of this story is how one of the respected luthiers at Gibson suggested applying the Tone-Rite to improve sound and stated matter-of-factly a "breaking in" period was necessary to bring a mandolin up to speed. So is that snake oil salesmanship or experience talking?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Keep in mind that we don't know if he only suggested that because the owner of this particular mandolin doesn't play it very often. For a mandolin that is played daily it may have never come up.

Other than that, I'm just as curious as you on this matter.

[vegas]

Keep in mind that we don't know if he only suggested that because the owner of this particular mandolin doesn't play it very often. For a mandolin that is played daily it may have never come up.

Other than that, I'm just as curious as you on this matter.

I understand but the fact a respected Gibson luthier believed a Tone-Rite could improve the sound of one of their Master Models for ANY reason under ANY circumstances tells me respected people who build mandolins believe Tone-Rites serve a purpose.

[Bertram Henze]

the fact a respected Gibson luthier believed a Tone-Rite could improve the sound of one of their Master Models for ANY reason under ANY circumstances tells me respected people who build mandolins believe Tone-Rites serve a purpose.

I wonder when they will discover the marketing power:
Quality built and matunerited in sound casks for 12 months!

[M.Marmot]

...you know, the same way the rigorous application of science led the world to better appreciate great works of art.

Inquiring minds want to know!

Exactly! - like how the humanist interest in science led to the Renaissance or the development and study of optics led to Impressionism, or, or... hold on, you were only joking?

It's definitely something that one of Gibson's luthiers reccomend's their use - i wonder would the same luthier or Gibson for the matter go so far as to officially endorse tonerite? That'd certainly be a coup.

To the O.P. thanks for sharing your story and fair play to those folks in Gibson for fixing up your mandolin.

If anything this story tells me that rather than rely on quick fit gadgets there is better value in having an instrument given the once over by a qualified and experienced luthier.

[Rick Lindstrom]

I understand but the fact a respected Gibson luthier believed a Tone-Rite could improve the sound of one of their Master Models for ANY reason under ANY circumstances tells me respected people who build mandolins believe Tone-Rites serve a purpose.

Gibson is probably well aware of the placebo effect associated with ToneRites.

What I'm wondering is this- if you can send a "not so good" Gibson to the factory and have it come back as a "stellar instrument", why don't they just come from the factory that way to begin with? Is there a placebo effect associated with "sending them back to the factory"?

[Bernie Daniel]

Well this started off as a story about one man's Gibson Master model and now has evolved (devolved?) into a discussion of "ToneRite-is-it real". I wonder if that has ever been discussed here before? I can't believe it is happening!

I don't know why David Harvey suggested it, but I do know that he is genius when it comes to setting up a mandolin! In addition, he is apparently also very good at directing mandolin production at Gibson because mandolins being build there now are very very good.

It seems that many here who believe that there is such a thing as a mandolin sounding "green" when new and then "breaking in" after being played for a while?

So, if that really happens then why is it such a stretch to think that using a mechanical device, instead of your pick, to move the strings might also have a similar effect?

Personally, I don't really think mandolins 'break in" so I am also skeptical about a process like ToneRite.

OTOH, if you DO believe in the former shouldn't you also believe in the latter? Maybe David is in that camp!

[M.Marmot]

It is a pity that it has become yet another discussion about that product - the bad luck of having posting this thread just when another tonerite flare-up was smoldering.

But the OP also makes me wonder - what is the usual luthier policy for mandolin tune-ups?

One friend of mine bought a guitar from a dealer in town who had an exclusive contract with to sell this particular brand.
With that purchase came a more or less lifetime guarantee for luthier check-ups in shop - and the instrument was no where near 15k in price.

I take it thats not general policy then - even when the price of an instrument goes into the big figures?

[f5loar]

The cats out of the bag now. The secret to why the DMMs always sound so great is the one month "breaking-in" time with a Tone-Rite.

[Stephen Porter]

From a newbie's perspective, this thread is a little disturbing. The notion that a good setup is THE most important thing in bringing out the best in a mandolin is probably single most repeated advice given at the Cafe. Also virtually all the vendors who advertise or participate here cite "expert setup" as part of the reason why one should buy from them. Yet, the OP's original post implies that a $15K mandolin came from a big-time shop like The Mandolin Store sounding nowhere near what it should be, and even more alarmingly with bad intonation on the G-strings? And the final fix included getting the bridge fitted to the top correctly? Yikes!

On the one hand, I also don't understand why the OP would spend that kind of money on a mando without playing it before buying; on the other, I'm glad it all worked out in the end. Three years with an instrument that is constantly bugging you because it just isn't right, doesn't sound enjoyable at all. It would drive me nuts! Super that Gibson stepped up to the plate and made it right.

I probably don't have enough experience or the ear to judge, but it makes me wonder who, in actual fact, IS capable of a truly expert setup?

Also agree with Bernie and regret that the Tonerite thing has become a focus of the discussion. I'd bet a lot that 99.99% of the improvement was getting Dave Harvey to address the setup problems.

Just my .015.

STP

[grassrootphilosopher]

From a newbie's perspective, this thread is a little disturbing. The notion that a good setup is THE most important thing in bringing out the best in a mandolin is probably single most repeated advice given at the Cafe. Also virtually all the vendors who advertise or participate here cite "expert setup" as part of the reason why one should buy from them. Yet, the OP's original post implies that a $15K mandolin came from a big-time shop like The Mandolin Store sounding nowhere near what it should be, and even more alarmingly with bad intonation on the G-strings? And the final fix included getting the bridge fitted to the top correctly? Yikes!

On the one hand, I also don't understand why the OP would spend that kind of money on a mando without playing it before buying; on the other, I'm glad it all worked out in the end. Three years with an instrument that is constantly bugging you because it just isn't right, doesn't sound enjoyable at all. It would drive me nuts! Super that Gibson stepped up to the plate and made it right.

I probably don't have enough experience or the ear to judge, but it makes me wonder who, in actual fact, IS capable of a truly expert setup?

Also agree with Bernie and regret that the Tonerite thing has become a focus of the discussion. I'd bet a lot that 99.99% of the improvement was getting Dave Harvey to address the setup problems.

Just my .015.

STP

I think that when you are used to good or great instruments nuances of tone, setup etc. may cause you to experience that the instrument does not sound good (or as good as you may expect it to sound).
Play the instrument continuously and have a first rate setup and the intially great instrument will come to life.

Why don´t you play an instrument before you buy it? Some people just don´t have access to these kinds of instruments. So you have to buy them sight unseen. There are brands, where this kind of purchase seems to be allright (newer Gibsons, Ellis, Kimble, Duff, Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel...).

So when you know your way around good instruments and you have one that does not sound as you would expect it should sound, I think that you´ll think about why it does not sound the way it should sound. This can take some time. Iff you´re not a setup person yourself, you´ll try the little different things that may have an effect on the sound, like different strings, raising/lowering the bridge, repositioning the bridge etc. All of this can mess up the previous setup more... So when you´re at your wits end you´ll go to a setup person/repair person.

Of all the instruments that I have played, the one that was set up by Dave Harvey played the very best. He is really a great setup man. And yes, under his tenure Gibson makes some of the best Gibson mandolins since the late nineties.

[Tobin]

Intonation being off was not necessarily the fault of Gibson. There are many reasons the bridge could have moved. Setting the intonation is something that any mandolin player should be able to do himself in five minutes, and will have do to periodically over time. So that's not necessarily anything to be disturbed about. If the bridge wasn't properly fitted, though, that's another story. But in any case, a good setup is an art form that takes an experienced hand to balance all the variables for an instrument's individual personality, and even two good luthiers may give different results based on what feels and sound right to them (or what they perceive the customer wants). It sounds to me like this was a good mandolin that just had been played very little, and with the bridge in the wrong place for a long time. It got what it needed.

[Michael Bridges]

Main thing I took from OP was that Gibson took care of his issue, and he had a good customer service experience. Good on them. Whether folks chose to use vibrators on their mandolins is strictly a personal choice, and in our current, tolerent society should not be judged.

[almeriastrings]

Things can move in shipping... temperature... humidity. Anything that has been in a store may also have been adjusted.

I can say that when I got my Dave Harvey signed Fern the setup was absolutely spot on out of the box. Had it been subject to adverse conditions, though, that might not have been the case.

[Paul Statman]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

From the OP before returning the F5 to Gibson:

"In the meantime I’m using the tone-rite and also playing the mandolin at the occasional gig, practice, jam and the like. It’s changed, since I started with the tone rite, it’s a different instrument. The tone-rite must have done something. It doesn’t just chop, it WHOMPS. It really rings and sustains. It’s loud, clear and really penetrates. It’s much easier to play and I have no idea why. People comment on it. It can literally hurt your ears if you bear down. People ask me to back away from the mic."

I don't know what 'scientific method' may be applied to mandolin sound quality. My unscientific ears choose my music and my instruments. Maybe some of them are placebos. I also have ToneRites on all my instruments between uses as TR yields audible results, and because I cannot play more than one at a time - nor can I play any one of them 24/7 for that matter. Good Vibrations!

[William Smith]

Very good Gibson story,,Every instrument needs a proper setup for its best potential, I'm always tweakin my mandolins after a long period of play or if their just sitting around, bridge saddles move forward sometime, humidity or lack of will cause action to get too low or high etc...
Also a firm believer of the opening up process and the thaught of the more ya play a gourd the better they sound! Excellent service from David representing Gibson is for sure shown in the original post!

[BradKlein]

I'm all for sharing stories of good customer service and makers standing behind their products. At the same time, I would never EXPECT free set up on an instrument after the initial purchase. It takes significant time and there's always some risk of mishap. Mandolins last a very long time, and they move with time. Tops change shape, and the geometry of neck, top, sides, changes over time. And of course there is wear at the places strings touch wood, metal, pearl, or bone.

And as for buying a new instrument untried, it's not that crazy an idea if you have an impression of that maker's work. If you don't like the sound of a quality instrument, you can bet that there is someone else who'll be pleased by it. Matt Umanov (who's had more instruments pass through his Greenwich Village store than I care to think about) once told me that it's no use pricing a used instrument on his own idea of how 'good' it sounds. Someone will eventually walk in to the store and pick it out of all the others as sounding 'best' to them. He set the price based on brand, age, condition and demand - and left it to customers to judge the sound.

[vegas]

I wonder when they will discover the marketing power:
Quality built and matunerited in sound casks for 12 months!

Maybe they feel the controversy about the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of Tone-Rite would turn around and bite them? Some people seem to be very strong in their thinking Tone-Rite is quackery. Maybe those people would begin to question Gibson's judgment? Perhaps Gibson has done some research and felt an across-the-board application of Tone-Rite treatment to their mandolins would either not boost sales or possibly cause people to loose confidence in the company? I obviously don't have answers but it sure made me do a double take when one of their respected luthiers suggested using it to fix a problem.

[Iron]

From a newbie's perspective, this thread is a little disturbing. The notion that a good setup is THE most important thing in bringing out the best in a mandolin is probably single most repeated advice given at the Cafe. Also virtually all the vendors who advertise or participate here cite "expert setup" as part of the reason why one should buy from them. Yet, the OP's original post implies that a $15K mandolin came from a big-time shop like The Mandolin Store sounding nowhere near what it should be, and even more alarmingly with bad intonation on the G-strings? And the final fix included getting the bridge fitted to the top correctly? Yikes!

On the one hand, I also don't understand why the OP would spend that kind of money on a mando without playing it before buying; on the other, I'm glad it all worked out in the end. Three years with an instrument that is constantly bugging you because it just isn't right, doesn't sound enjoyable at all. It would drive me nuts! Super that Gibson stepped up to the plate and made it right.

I probably don't have enough experience or the ear to judge, but it makes me wonder who, in actual fact, IS capable of a truly expert setup?

Also agree with Bernie and regret that the Tonerite thing has become a focus of the discussion. I'd bet a lot that 99.99% of the improvement was getting Dave Harvey to address the setup problems.

Just my .015.

STP

I would agree, makes me rethink my plan on purchasing an upgrade with an expert setup ?

[f5loar]

Since this is about a MM from Dave Harvey, I wanted to chime in here and say today I got to pick on a brand new Dave Harvey Gibson Fern dated 12/12/12. There happen to be a really nice late 20's Fern in the area to compare it too and I must say Dave got this one right. The Cremona color front,back and sides was spot on. The sound, the set up, the way it played with ease was pretty awesome. It had a real cutting edge to it. I could tell this top was tap tuned and I felt the bars inside and they were just like the old one. I found no flaws. The only obvious difference I could find was in the headstock binding and the shape of the heel. Not sure why Gibson can't get those heel shapes up to the spec of a Loar or Fern but when you set them side by side it's pretty obvious it's not the same. It's slightly bigger. However this minor problem, if one considers it a problem does not affect anything about the mandolin. I also noticed this same size difference on some of the DMM models only they were smaller. The neck on this Fern was almost identical to the old one. Not too thin and not too thick. Just right for speed. I shudder to think what a ToneRite would do to this one. You can knock Gibson mandolins all you want, I think they are still building some great ones.

[goose 2]

I am a firm believer in a mandolin opening up. The first MM that I owned was back in 2002. I bought it brand spanking new from Ken Cartwright. When I first got it it was ok but definitely tight. When I called Ken to discuss it he told me to play it hard for 3 or 4 weeks and it will rapidly change into the mandolin it was built to be. He too had a new MM at the time and he said he had experienced the same thing. Sure enough at about three weeks I had a stretch where I kept having to retune and I could hear it getting louder and popping better all over the neck. By the 4th week I was completely satisfied with the instrument and it continued to slowly mature from there. I was already a fairly proficient picker and I don't think my picking improved much during those three weeks to account for the undeniable changes in tone and projection. I sold it after I got my DMM but have just recently heard a recording of that mandolin by the fella that bought it. My oh MY! it is awesome. That being said, I also owned a brand spanking new highest end mando that you can name that, after a good beating for about a year, it never did open up to my fancy so I sold it. Maybe the tone rite would have saved the day on that one.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Stephen Porter - "...why the OP would spend that kind of money on a mando without playing it before buying...". Stephen,as you very likely know,there's a widely held belief that a new mandolin doesn't sound as good as it's going to get in the future,so folk will buy a 'good' sounding one even if they haven't played it,due to an instrument's reputation & 'status', in the hope that it will become a 'great' sounding one. In this case,the OP found that it wasn't happening. I'd have expected the same thing as the OP,after all,the MM is one of Gibson's flagship mandolins. Ultimately, knowing that Dave Harvey is at the helm of the Gibson mando.production,the OP did what i'd have done,ship it to Mr Harvey & have him work some of his magic on it. In respect of Dave Harvey's talent & reputation,they just seem to grow, & any Gibson owner should sleep easy at night knowing that he's there if needed. Most certainy a gent worthy of the highest respect, & kudos to Gibson as a company for letting Dave put things right,
Ivan

[Bernie Daniel]

I would agree, makes me rethink my plan on purchasing an upgrade with an expert setup ?

But what is your alternative plan?

[Austin Bob]

From a newbie's perspective, this thread is a little disturbing. The notion that a good setup is THE most important thing in bringing out the best in a mandolin is probably single most repeated advice given at the Cafe. Also virtually all the vendors who advertise or participate here cite "expert setup" as part of the reason why one should buy from them. Yet, the OP's original post implies that a $15K mandolin came from a big-time shop like The Mandolin Store sounding nowhere near what it should be, and even more alarmingly with bad intonation on the G-strings? And the final fix included getting the bridge fitted to the top correctly? Yikes!

On the one hand, I also don't understand why the OP would spend that kind of money on a mando without playing it before buying; on the other, I'm glad it all worked out in the end. Three years with an instrument that is constantly bugging you because it just isn't right, doesn't sound enjoyable at all. It would drive me nuts! Super that Gibson stepped up to the plate and made it right.

I probably don't have enough experience or the ear to judge, but it makes me wonder who, in actual fact, IS capable of a truly expert setup?

Also agree with Bernie and regret that the Tonerite thing has become a focus of the discussion. I'd bet a lot that 99.99% of the improvement was getting Dave Harvey to address the setup problems.

Just my .015.

STP

Hard to say what happened here. Lots of things can affect a mandolin's setup. I like to bring mine in every few years to have my guy have a look-see. Sometimes he simply dresses a few frets, others it's more involved.

I also think it's somewhat unfair to call out the Mandolin Store as possibly doing an improper setup, when there's no indication they were ever given a chance to address the situation.

What's important here is not really who's at fault. The take away I got is that Gibson stood behind their product. That's what really matters in the end.

Most retail stores have a return policy of sorts. Custom builders policies may vary, it's best to check first. But the bottom line is that if your interested in buying a new high end mandolin, you're usually making a decision based mainly on the reputation of the builder. Once you receive it, you have a limited window to return. Sometimes you don't notice a problem right away, or like the OP you think it will break in, only to find it doesn't. Which is why I stated that making it right is what really matters here. I would say the same no matter what brand of mandolin it was, or where it was purchased.