Sometimes it's best just to get a drink of water...

[greg_tsam]

This topic was broached a short while back about what to do at a jam when things aren't going your way and one suggestion was to get up and get some water. I remember I gave the poster a little grief about it (Sorry about that Darryl Wolfe. I'm eating my hat, Sir, but first I'm tipping it to you. ) Mostly I don't do that except in extreme cases. Instead I usually grin and bear it but last night was something different.

Every week we have a certain picker who is contrarian and passive aggressive. They don't talk to much unless addressed, not many smiles, lots of smirks or frown, not much eye contact. And that's OK.. What's not is this picker plays over everyone's breaks, makes sure he's the loudest chopper like he's Paul Bunyon chopping down the big one. Whoa Bessie! ....and plays a pentatonic pattern every song...the same pattern...the same notes...different key...ugh...

I'm all for learning and having an open jam but this cat isn't learning, improving or progressing at all after 2 years. He's either an musical anarchist or doesn't realize what he's doing and how it affects others. I'm betting on the former rather than the latter. Those that know him better says its been this way for years.

So last night I did the unthinkable. I got up for water an unprecedented THREE times.

[Randi Gormley]

We have a guy who's kind of overbearing who, when he begins to pontificate, has spurred as many as three people to get up and get a beer at the bar and not come back for 10 minutes. sigh. I don't drink, so I just let my eyes glaze over.

[AlanN]

Can you say

Jambuster!

[Mike Arakelian]

I stopped going to a weekly jam at my church because of one insufferable, overbearing guy who had very little talent but always tried to play louder than everyone else and insisted on running the jam despite not really knowing what he was doing. A shame, because we had some other musicians that were both very nice and quite good. I play in another weekly group so all is not lost, but it's a shame none the less. I had't thought about getting up for a glass of water and doubt that it would have done any good any way.

[allenhopkins]

At some point, sometime, someone's gotta take the bull by the horns and talk to this guy.

We've had issues at our weekly folk club sing-arounds, which have been going on for 42 years (not each sing-around, though some seem that long -- the series). We've had people show up with Nazi insignia on, uncontrolled epileptics having seizures, a guy who threw up before each session (well, not in the room, but near enough so everyone knew what was happening). There have been people on the local sex offender registry, stalkers who've gone after women, people with insufferable BO, electric guitarists (sorry to lump them in with other unsavory characters, but this is an acoustic sing-around), people who tried to dominate, people who started confrontations, people who brought unruly uncontrollable kids, and a whole bunch of people who just didn't "get it" and thus decreased everyone else's enjoyment.

Well, we're an organized club, so we have officers and a board. Each meeting has a designated leader, so there's an "authority figure," usually more than one, in the room, to handle problems. And if a person or a problem persisted more than a single session, the group usually designated someone to approach the source of the problem, and try to solve it. One way or the other, and sometimes by disinviting the person to future sing-arounds.

Now, a jam may not have a real sponsoring organization, or a designated leader, but if the person's actions are disruptive to more than one or two "sensitive" people, it makes sense to have an "intervention" of some kind. Differences in style are understandable and excusable, but discourteousness, disregard for other musicians, and a bullying attitude aren't. And, if the problem picker gets mad and leaves -- isn't that a better outcome, than "getting a glass of (whatever)" and leaving him clueless about the effect he's having?

In any case, good luck!

[TheBlindBard]

When you say the guy plays only one scale, what do you mean? Surely the scale patterns are the same (at least for the ones I've used and you can easily switch to another key if you know a scale pattern).
I haven't really played in a jam before, only once and that was pretty free improv.

[pickloser]

At some point, sometime, someone's gotta take the bull by the horns and talk to this guy. . .(snip)

I agree, but I think the talk should not come after one's been doing a slow burn. For one's own sake, it should come after a long and calming drink of water and privately, if possible. About a year ago, I spoke much more harshly than I should have to a harmonica player who had squeezed into our bluegrass jam. He was playing the tune loudly over everyone's break and the singing too. Although nothing I said was inappropriate in meaning, to this day I regret the tone of my remarks and my lack of grace. I think about it often and with embarrassment. I hate that I did it the way I did it. If I could have a do-over, I'd get the water.

[OldSausage]

Sometimes, these people are psychopaths, and it's a complete waste of resources talking to a psychopath. I think Allen's "interventions" are a good policy, if you have an authority figure to do it, or are one yourself.

[greg_tsam]

It's an open jam and there are two jam leaders who get paid to show up and lead but their stance is live and let live unless it's "really" something big. They're afraid if they speak to anyone like Allen suggested, which is my way of doing things, because others may not come and eventually the jam will fail.

Last year, a little more, there was another person who did the same thing and I had words, tactful and polite but that ended poorly. Not only did he not appreciate the suggestion but escalated his disfunction which brought out a bad reaction on my part. I gave him the "You're #1" salute. One for him and one for the horse he rode in on. After that he stalked me for an entire year at the jams. lol... Finally he gave up after not getting a rise out of me and stopped coming. He was a little coo coo..

BB (blind bard) what I'm referring to is the same notes, the same pattern regardless of the song. Du Du Duh, Du Du Duh, Du Du Du Duh. Over and over again. Wanna hear it in A? How about in C? Same thing in Bb.. Ugh. He must have given up playing the melody line long ago once he found those three notes. Sometimes he throws in a fourth but it's not very often. And this guy leads a local band. Amazing. I've wanted to offer to help but it would be inappropriate and most likely offend him and I'd like to avoid another confrontation like I described above.

Last month he started playing over another mando picker who is less tolerant and this picker stopped in the middle of his break and said "You want it? Go Ahead." and the repeat offender said "No, you go ahead." They bickered quietly with short little barbs for just a quick second during the next break and that was all. But, he was right back at it the next week. It's not worth it I guess but it sure is frustrating.

Come to think of it, I don't see him at any of the "invite only" get togethers.

[Astro]

Well whenever I sing at jam group everyone gets up and gets water.

And all this time I just thought they were thirsty.

[shortymack]

Well whenever I sing at jam group everyone gets up and gets water.

And all this time I just thought they were thirsty.

Sometimes I feel like everyone gets up and gets some water every time I post something.

[Michael Weaver]

Sometimes I feel like everyone gets up and gets some water every time I post something.

NO!!! That's crazy talk!.........gulp gulp gulp

[OldGus]

I don't think it is intentional. This guy is probably a sloppy player and doesn't understand the Bluegrass jam session etiquette or has a hard time adapting to it. It's not easy for a lot of people. I think you should remind him with a gentle correction, not to solo over someone else's solo, start there, if he doesn't listen see if you can get someone else who agrees with you to ask him again, if that doesn't work see if you can get enough people together to have him expelled from the jam session or find another yourself. This is one place where people go to get better, you can't always expect the best to be there but they have to be willing to improve. If he is able and not willing to correct a problem he is causing for the group he is counterproductive to the harmony sound the group has been working for. I guess just remind him that you want a productive polished sound in Bluegrass not a sloppy, erratic, clattering sound like certain jazz. Bill Monroe said it is a "schooling"(disciplined) music so do this guy a favor and get with the discipline.

[Tobin]

The really bad part of this is that sometimes I really do get up just for the sake of getting a drink of water, or to go outside for a smoke. I hate to think that I'm offending someone who thinks I'm doing it because I don't like them (or their manner of playing).

[AlanN]

quote:

Last month he started playing over another mando picker who is less tolerant and this picker stopped in the middle of his break and said "You want it? Go Ahead." and the repeat offender said "No, you go ahead."

This drives me nuts, and happens with vocals, also. A jam I hit has no tenor singers to speak of. So, if I sing a song and and am doing the lead, one or 2 guys come in on the chorus and...sing lead. At first, I was like..."Oh, you want to sing the lead?" They did not get it, at all. I now know what to expect at this jam, and if the same thing happens, I jump to tenor on the chorus. I do not like doing that (at all), but it sure beats a unison thing on the chorus (this is on stage, in front of seated folks). These guys would be happy as clams just to do what they do, oblivious to how lame it sounds. I cannot do that. In fact, there is little worse in this music than 2 or 3 grown men singing the *same* part (with slight pitch drift)...horrid.

[TheBlindBard]

So, the guy plays the exact same pattern, no matter the tune? I could see if it's an open jam session and you're just there to make music, but if you're playing specific tunes, the guy should at least make an effort to learn some of the tunes
That sounds like a mess, though, hopefully something comes of it.

[Markus]

So, the guy plays the exact same pattern, no matter the tune? I could see if it's an open jam session and you're just there to make music, but if you're playing specific tunes, the guy should at least make an effort to learn some of the tunes
That sounds like a mess, though, hopefully something comes of it.

For bluegrass vocal tunes, it's rarely THAT difficult to find the melody line - especially after playing them a dozen+ times. At some point, not referencing the melody line of a song shows laziness and apathy towards the tunes.

The weakness of jams is that every song runs together, is played stylistically the same with little dynamics or true change song-to-song. When I see good players going to jams, they're always trying to tackle each song differently, to play related to the melody, to add dynamics or rhythmic interest ... to try to turn it into music not just jamming. Play each song as it's own tune, not just another set of chord changes at a slightly different tempo. When players attend jams for years and completely ignore those things ... it makes it less fun for those who want to play at that level, and less of a learning environment for beginner players to contribute to a really great version of a tune.

A great guitar picker with a quiet guitar has started coming to our local jam. It is really amazing how when it comes to that guy's turn to take a break - in an instant everyone drops their volume [not intensity or speed] so that his guitar can ring out. With a guy like what Greg discusses there ... he would be drowned out, and after a few weeks, just stay home.
--

AlanN - Some of us didn't come into this music understanding the very good point you make. Eventually, someone clued us in. I'm the sort of guy you do NOT want trying to sing unison for the reason you state. It burns my own ears to think of it, but like most of us I thought it was a good idea at one time. I'm sure glad someone told me to listen to what it sounded like the next time I was out in the crowd. Excepting a very few times [I don't mind everyone singing the `Dooley' on said tune] it is a huge negative.

[Mark Seale]

This topic was broached a short while back about what to do at a jam when things aren't going your way and one suggestion was to get up and get some water. I remember I gave the poster a little grief about it (Sorry about that Darryl Wolfe. I'm eating my hat, Sir, but first I'm tipping it to you. ) Mostly I don't do that except in extreme cases. Instead I usually grin and bear it but last night was something different.

Every week we have a certain picker who is contrarian and passive aggressive. They don't talk to much unless addressed, not many smiles, lots of smirks or frown, not much eye contact. And that's OK.. What's not is this picker plays over everyone's breaks, makes sure he's the loudest chopper like he's Paul Bunyon chopping down the big one. Whoa Bessie! ....and plays a pentatonic pattern every song...the same pattern...the same notes...different key...ugh...

I'm all for learning and having an open jam but this cat isn't learning, improving or progressing at all after 2 years. He's either an musical anarchist or doesn't realize what he's doing and how it affects others. I'm betting on the former rather than the latter. Those that know him better says its been this way for years.

So last night I did the unthinkable. I got up for water an unprecedented THREE times.

Even so, I do miss that jam...

[JeffD]

Playing music with other people does force us to deal with other people. All varieties of other people.

[shortymack]

For bluegrass vocal tunes, it's rarely THAT difficult to find the melody line - especially after playing them a dozen+ times. At some point, not referencing the melody line of a song shows laziness and apathy towards the tunes.

I respectfully disagree. What might come easy to one person doesnt necessarily come to another after a dozen times through it. It has nothing to do with laziness and apathy but rather ability in some cases. Some people just arent as blessed as others.

There is a difference however with someones attitude and willingness to listen and learn when another more seasoned or talented person tries to help or give advice and they scoff at it. If thats the case, thats where the problem truly resides.

[Markus]

I respectfully disagree. What might come easy to one person doesnt necessarily come to another after a dozen times through it. It has nothing to do with laziness and apathy but rather ability in some cases. Some people just arent as blessed as others.

I hear you. But two years down the road?

I would think if someone would practice, just a little - over the course of a year or two some sort of progress would be visible. But if you only pull out your mandolin at a jam, it's going to be the same thing coming out week after week. I don't expect people to progress very much over the months, but zero progress is another story.

Maybe I have too high of expectations of people, yet it sounds like OP has been patient for a very long time with this. I would also suggest that the overly-loud chopping and solo practice during other folk's solos shows a certain attitude toward the jam at I would call apathy.

It's a lot easier for me to be critical online than in a jam. It's a tricky place OP is in as advice of any kind is so often taken personally and negatively.

[TheBlindBard]

Reading about all of this half makes me wish there were more sessions near me to go to.

[Fretless]

It's an open jam and there are two jam leaders who get paid to show up and lead but their stance is live and let live unless it's "really" something big. They're afraid if they speak to anyone like Allen suggested, which is my way of doing things, because others may not come and eventually the jam will fail.

There's your real problem. The leaders are being paid to organize and maintain the jam so it's their responsibility to deal with anything that interferes with the group having an enjoyable time.

I agree with "live and let live" up to point; I co-hosted (unpaid) an Irish session for a couple of years and we let a lot of stuff slide, like playing a couple of tunes really slow so beginners could join in, or letting an old time tune sneak in here and there to make someone a little more comfortable. No harm done.

But I think your leaders' logic is a little confused. If they speak to a disruptive player then other players might not come to the jam, so the jam will fail. Huh? How about this instead - If they speak to a disruptive player and that person decides to either a) comply or b) leave then Greg (and probably a few other players who silently agree with him) will keep coming to the jam and maybe even encourage others to come. Then the jam will be a success.

One of the leaders needs to handle the situation - appropriately, in private and without personal attacks. It's then the player's responsibility to choose between changing his behavior or stomping off to pout.

I'm not sure if you meant the leaders have a general hands off policy or if you had spoken with them about the guy and that was their response. If you haven't said anything then you should. If you have, all I can suggest is continue complaining and encourage others to speak up. Make the leaders earn their pay.

I once witnessed a musician who'd hit his limit have a meltdown in the middle of a jam at a popular coffehouse. It wasn't pretty. Afterward, four of us let him know we felt the same way, and no, none of us have ever gone back.

Good luck, hope you work it out.

Fretless

[greg_tsam]

Even so, I do miss that jam...

It's still a great jam, Mark. For the most part I enjoy the heck out of it and get so much out of it that this particular person and the
one or two others don't even factor. It's all good and I consider this a proving ground and an exercise in patience.

[Barry Wilson]