Thile Bach CD has Landed

[Jim Garber]

Excellent, Dagger, but how do they feel about Bach played on the mandolin?

[Brandon Flynn]

Hmmmm... I have to truly think on this one. I wonder how many reviewers of classical music have trouble distinguishing their subjective preference for, say, a Guaneri violin over a Strad, or a Busendorfer over a Steinway piano. i would think that anyone with a refined ear can hear the difference in playing technique, phrasing dynamics and the emotional context of the music regardless of what instrument the player is playing. Just my dos centavos.

With the Guaneri/Strad thing, a lot of the tone quality of the instrument comes down to the instrument itself, but then bow technique and intonation can play into that as well if I'm not mistaken. The tone of a mandolin is also affected(effected? never get that one!) by the pick choice, angle of attack, etc. as you know. I feel like at the very least someone would have to have a pretty intimate knowledge of classical mandolins and F5s to do this well. I've never played a bowlback or classical mandolin, but I imagine the smaller scale presents unique challenges, advantages, and limitations. And that in itself could affect so much of an album like this, as Thile has talked about many of the choices he made being to play to his mandolin's strength. But I would love to see someone try a review if they had working knowledge of both instruments!

[brunello97]

Hmmmm... I have to truly think on this one. I wonder how many reviewers of classical music have trouble distinguishing their subjective preference for, say, a Guaneri violin over a Strad, or a Busendorfer over a Steinway piano. i would think that anyone with a refined ear can hear the difference in playing technique, phrasing dynamics and the emotional context of the music regardless of what instrument the player is playing. Just my dos centavos.

Por unos pocos centavos más.

Amigo, I think the Strad v Guarneri comp is a red herring. That comparison might be valid in the case of comping a Loar v a Gilchrist (or a old Embergher v a new Gummihalsdorfer.) But the Loar v "Your Favorite Bowlback Here" is a far different comp. Steinway v ARP, maybe.

The entire reason this conversation is even happening is because 1.) a guy not in the 'classical music club' is stepping up and 2.) he's playing it on a different instrument that most classical mando wanks have either no experience doing the George Michael with or have simply written off as ____________. We see it around here all the time. "You can't play X on a Y!"

It is almost a hundred years since the folks at Gibson developed these mandolins certainly with the intention of playing classical music. They got usurped by a guy in a funny hat that was that. Now we have an extremely skilled player putting out a well recorded version of some classical schlagers. Having a 'refined ear' and a 'clear head' and 'good writing skills' seems (to me) beyond the scope of the reviews I've read about this so far. When somebody threatens some sub-group's self-defined expertise the bluster comes out. We may get some decent reviews of this or maybe not. I'm not holding my breath (and have pretty much stopped reading them.)

Writing about music is like writing about music. You actually can dance about architecture. We do it all the time.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

First of all, I don't recall anyone mentioning another American virtuoso who has also played Bach on a Loar:



Bach Partita #3 appears on the album Gator Strut issued way back in 1984.

In addition, I would not say that it is a sole comparison of Loar (or any other carved mandolin) vs. a bowlback -- polar opposites most of us would agree. Yes, some classical players play bowlbacks but I hesitate to even consider them in the majority. Lyon & Healy mandolins, Kermans among others. Marissa Carroll on a L&H B:



On top of all of this discussion, most of the classical mandolinists I know may have their particular preferences for instruments and tones but in some ways they are less absolute than many bluegrass players who must have an F5 to play their music. I believe that Marrissa Carroll her cohorts down under as well as the Israeli mandolinists with their Kermans are no considered any less for playing their particular instruments and are judged by their playing.

I truly don't see this general bias toward bowlbacks as the only instrument for playing classical mandolin.

[JeffD]

- Mr. Cowart's article may not win him many accolades for it's quality but that does not negate entirely his critique or opinion of the album.

And as for his opinion of the article?

What does he say there that Mr. Thile himself does not already articulate in his interviews?

There is a trade off when you approach the pieces with a mandolin instead of a violin - some pieces suffer, some gain - there's a confrontation of expectations but ultimately it is all worth the 'remarkable and ambitious undertaking'.
...

Yep.

I tried to read it from the perspective of someone who first heard of Thile on NPR and never conceived of a mandolin - and, technical and factual gaffs aside, I thought it captured what someone not intimate with the mandolin or Thile but conversant with Bach would want to know in considering purchasing the CD.

[JeffD]

I'd like to see these offended purists play Bach on the mando as well as CT does. Then they can spout off all they want and I'd listen.

Its not an athletic competition. Lots of musicians have played Bach on lots of instruments with equally virtuoso technique, CT is only different in that we know his instrument from the player point of view, and we have followed his career and other music.

At my level of playing I would MUCH rather make a run the Bach P&S with a mandolin than a violin. (In either case I would do a pretty poor job of it, though it would be fun.)

[foldedpath]

The entire reason this conversation is even happening is because 1.) a guy not in the 'classical music club' is stepping up and 2.) he's playing it on a different instrument that most classical mando wanks have either no experience doing the George Michael with or have simply written off as ____________. We see it around here all the time. "You can't play X on a Y!"

I think it's a different conversation from the perspective of a classical music reviewer, although the conversation here on the forum has mostly shifted onto that defensive ground, for obvious reasons.

In the classical world, the composer's intent is honored in a way that is different from most other genres. Bach wrote these pieces for the violin, not for the harpsichord or any other instrument. Presumably, he was thinking of the violin's timbre and sustain when he constructed the music. From a classical musician or reviewer's perspective, I think it's totally legitimate to tackle the question of "how well does it work on this other instrument, that the music wasn't written for?" Thile himself explores those same questions in his interviews about the project.

If someone recorded an acoustic mandolin album of Hendrix music, it might also be brilliant, but at some point we'd probably be talking about how well a piece like "Purple Haze" translates from distorted electric guitar phrasing to mandolin phrasing.

Now, this doesn't let anyone off the hook for writing a contradictory and poorly written review. I agree with all that's been said about that one review, in particular. But I think we need to allow the question, and not just assume that every single piece of music out there in the world can always be 100% successfully translated to mandolin.

[brunello97]

You've to fight for your right to Partit(a).

Relative to this discussion it seems like it is pretty irrelevant whether bluegrass players get huffy about what instruments they do or don't play. "Just because they're doing it doesn't mean you can...." or whatever my mama would say. What constitutes a majority? How many Euro classical mandolins are playing arch tops? We've heard from numerous voices here.

Mike's GS album certainly was way under the critical radar at the time (no blog wanks to contend with). The Bach piece was certainly a toss off relative to the work being discussed here. But the man is nothing but a smooth operator. Playing duets with Ms. Lichtenberg will certainly buy you a few props from the Classicos. Maybe Mr. Thile needed to dress in black, slick back his hair and maintain enough gravitas to properly pay his dues. Am I enjoying the opportunity to put a thumb in the eye of the Beholden? Of course.

Was just listening to Tony Rice's "Jerusalem Ridge" this AM. Does it sound better on the violin break, the mando break or the guitar break? What would Kenny Ba(ch)er think? I played along on my Vega bowl.

Play Bach on the tuba. Relax and enjoy. Give it time. Resist the urge to (quickly and constantly) critique.

Mick

[tablaninja]

Well now, what about the mandolin concert that Chris composed? It wasn't released on CD and only had a limited performance run as far as I know. One of our percussionist plays with the Winston Salem orchestra and was part of Chris's performance here in NC. My buddy said that the whole orchestra had a blast working with him and had nothing but praise for what he was doing. In fact, he said it was one of his best experiences with a guest artist. As an encore he played one of the Partita movements and apparently the violin section couldn't stop talking about how awesome it was. There is a full recording of that concert online here
http://youtu.be/VxwEQlYN-OA

Part 2 is here

http://youtu.be/K4IhZwboiYM

And the encore which starts out with one of my favorite Thile quotes.

http://youtu.be/ADtJqVMtA-M

Enjoy!

[JeffD]

In the classical world, the composer's intent is honored in a way that is different from most other genres. Bach wrote these pieces for the violin, not for the harpsichord or any other instrument. Presumably, he was thinking of the violin's timbre and sustain when he constructed the music. From a classical musician or reviewer's perspective, I think it's totally legitimate to tackle the question of "how well does it work on this other instrument, that the music wasn't written for?" Thile himself explores those same questions in his interviews about the project..

I am not an expert on the history, but I do recall reading something about both Bach and about Mozart, that they both are known to have thought about the possibilities of their music being played on other instruments, even instruments not yet invented. In the case of Bach I remember something about him teaching the lifting music from the instrument itself, lifted by the universality of the rules and 'mathematics' of the music's construction and letting it land legitimately on other, even future instruments.

I have also read a modern music professor, somewhere, talking about how portable Bach is, in general, (he talked about marimba and steel drum), and that portability was deliberate.

Might be a spurious memories.

I am not disagreeing with you, just remember the forward thinking of some composers, specifically Bach and Mozart.

[foldedpath]

I am not disagreeing with you, just remember the forward thinking of some composers, specifically Bach and Mozart.

You may be right, I'm not enough of a classical scholar to know either. The fact that so many non-violinists have interpreted Bach on other instruments over the years, does speak to the portability of the music.

There are violin pieces written by other composers, especially in the modern era, where one could probably make a stronger case that... "'ya know, you really shouldn't attempt this on anything but a violin."

A few years ago I engineered a demo CD recording of a young violinist with piano accompaniment. One of the Bartok pieces she played was done entirely in bowed harmonics... very spooky and ethereal. Maybe it's my failure of imagination, but I can't imagine that piece on mandolin.

[tablaninja]

Here's a video fresh off the presses.

[Wolfboy]

In the classical world, the composer's intent is honored in a way that is different from most other genres. Bach wrote these pieces for the violin, not for the harpsichord or any other instrument. Presumably, he was thinking of the violin's timbre and sustain when he constructed the music. From a classical musician or reviewer's perspective, I think it's totally legitimate to tackle the question of "how well does it work on this other instrument, that the music wasn't written for?" Thile himself explores those same questions in his interviews about the project.

If someone recorded an acoustic mandolin album of Hendrix music, it might also be brilliant, but at some point we'd probably be talking about how well a piece like "Purple Haze" translates from distorted electric guitar phrasing to mandolin phrasing.

Now, this doesn't let anyone off the hook for writing a contradictory and poorly written review. I agree with all that's been said about that one review, in particular. But I think we need to allow the question, and not just assume that every single piece of music out there in the world can always be 100% successfully translated to mandolin.

Bach himself transcribed Violin Partita No. 3 for lute (BWV 1006a), Violin Sonata No. 2 for harpsichord (BWV 964), and the fugue from Violin Sonata No. 1 for lute (BWV 1000, unless you subscribe to Nigel North's contention that that transcription is by Weyrauch). There are also written accounts by eyewitnesses of Bach performing his own solo violin works on harpsichord, adding as much bass as he felt necessary. And of course there's Cello Suite No. 5 in C Minor, which also exists as a lute suite in G minor. (The latter in Bach's own hand, the former in manuscripts by Anna Magdelena Bach and by Johann Peter Kellner - nobody seems to know for sure which version came first but they're both obviously from Bach's own time and inner circle.) All of which pretty much explodes the idea that Bach's music can or should only be played on the instruments for which it was "intended," since the great man himself moved it around and experimented with it all the time.

Just wanted to add that to the discussion before we got any further down the path of supposed instrumental legitimacy...everyone's welcome to their own opinions of Thile's or anybody else's interpretation of Bach, but the idea that Bach works are somehow less "pure" or "authentic" or whatever played on instruments other than the ones they were originally scored for is refuted by Bach's own practice. That's all...carry on...

[Jim Garber]

Mike's GS album certainly was way under the critical radar at the time (no blog wanks to contend with). The Bach piece was certainly a toss off relative to the work being discussed here. But the man is nothing but a smooth operator. Playing duets with Ms. Lichtenberg will certainly buy you a few props from the Classicos.

I recall an interview with MM at that time saying that he was putting in lots of time in playing the S&Ps on mandolin. I doubt BTW that his marriage to Ms. Lichtenberg was solely intended to curry favor with the classical crowd, tho I assume, Mick, you are mostly joking about that.

Frankly, I would love to hear actual criticisms from the classical community indicating this negativity toward Chris' CD. I have yet to see any reviews that dished Thile's recording from mainstream or even minor classical critics. Can anyone link to one?

I am not disagreeing with you, just remember the forward thinking of some composers, specifically Bach and Mozart.

I seem to recall that Segovia's repertoire on guitar included his own transcriptions of Bach and an arrangement of the Chaconne and that the guitar as a classical instrument interpreting music not composed for it was questioned critically at that time by the classical community. Anybody have any direct sources for that fact?

[Jim Garber]

On the subject of purity, Bach and the like: my observation would be that without transcriptions the general repertoire of classical mandolin, certainly as of the early 20th century, would be quite dismal. IMHO, there really is very little truly interesting music specifically composed for the mandolin. I also don't know of any classical players even now who don't play at least some transcriptions of music composed for other instruments.

BTW for the ultimate purist playing Bach's S&Ps on a modern violin at A440 would be verboten.

[Paul Kotapish]

Even among violinists, there is a considerable range of often cranky opinions about the proper instruments setup (neck angle, string composition, tuning pitch), bow (modern or Baroque), and performance technique (articulation, bowing, ornaments, vibrato) for Bach and other Baroque and earlier composers.

Towards a Performance History of the Sonatas and Partitas

Here's a famous exchange between the Tafalmusik ensemble and Pinchas Zukerman re modern performances of Baroque music.

We can probably guess where Zukerman might come down on the Thile recording.

I think Thile's interpretation of the music sounds great, and for my ear, those pieces are entirely appropriate on all manner of stringed instruments--single course, double course, archtop, bowlback, or otherwise. My guess is that those pieces would sound pretty cool on a marimba ensemble, too.

And in case anyone is still counting, I have several sets of the S&Ps on both period and modern instruments.

[bratsche]

Even among violinists, there is a considerable range of often cranky opinions about the proper instruments setup (neck angle, string composition, tuning pitch), bow (modern or Baroque), and performance technique (articulation, bowing, ornaments, vibrato) for Bach and other Baroque and earlier composers.

And you simply haven't lived if you've missed out on reading a violin forum free-for-all over the merits (or lack thereof) of using a chinrest in baroque music and/or a shoulder-rest in any music. That can make most things on this forum seem very tame by comparison!

bratsche

[Dagger Gordon]

Well my copy arrived today.

As far as I am concerned this is an absolutely monumental, completely staggering album.
I'm completely blown away by it.

Tremendous congratulations to Chris.

[greg_tsam]

PBS did a great interview right here. I laughed at CT's perspective and enjoyed every second of it.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/enter...lin_08-05.html

[M.Marmot]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...h-8752851.html

A short but florid review by The Independent's Andy Gill

'Once again, the protean malleability of J.S. Bach's genius is demonstrated by the unusual transcription of his work - in this case, the Violin Sonatas and Partitas - to another instrument, the mandolin. The Punch Brothers' mandolin virtuoso Chris Thile was first drawn to Bach by the rhythmic “groove” of Glenn Gould's 1981 re-recording of The Goldberg Variations. Thile's country and improv roots lend more rubato accents than some might prefer, but he liberates the pieces from their conservatoire corsets. The dazzling deftness of his fingering in the Presto and Double Presto sections evokes a kind of giddy delirium and his feathery technique wrests the tenderest of emotions from the second Sonata's Andante.'

[Andrew DeMarco]

Hearing this stuff done on bluegrass instrumentation made me go get and listen to more famous recordings (or at least the most popular on iTunes!). That is to say, starting with Fleck's Perpetual Motion, then Into the Cauldron and Live Duets made me seek out mainstream recordings of these pieces, which I've enjoyed over the year. They're all on violin, which is not surprising. After all, this music is written for solo violin.

But when I hear the pieces on violin, I think one of the limitations to understanding or feeling the music does have to do with the instrumentation. I'm a mediocre at best mandolinist and the last time I held a fiddle I think I cracked the owner's living room windows. I don't understand how to play a violin.

Having Thile do these Bach pieces on mandolin -- an F style mandolin -- not a meek weapon, feels like it gives me the opportunity to better understand the music. I feel like I hear the music more intensely because I experience echos of muscle memory when I pay attention. I can feel what Thile is doing with his hands, especially his right hand. I can't do what he's doing technically, but I know when fingers are engaged to pull as much sustain as possible from the notes in the Am Grave, and I can feel the exact energy that goes into whacking the chords in the Tempo di Borea: I can hear the deliberateness of the dynamics of the harder whacks versus the lighter whacks.

In other words, I feel like my familiarity with the mandolin (this is the mando cafe after all!) allows me to experience Bach on this album in a multimodal way that I am not able to when it's played on violin.

This album is great, and I can't wait for the next release with the Chaconne.

[Ken_P]

Getting back to this recording, I have a few thoughts which I don't think have been brought up here yet.

I think the A minor Sonata is by far the most successful of the three pieces on the album. I fully enjoy all three, of course, but while I have some (relatively minor) issues with the first two, I really love the A minor. I think it's probably the least remarked upon of the 6 in general, so maybe that helps, but listening closely to all four movements, I just love what he did with it. I don't have much to comment on in the first movement, so I'll start with the fugue. For all the hubub the early release of the G minor fugue caused, I've yet to hear anyone talk about this one. The tempo is much more reasonable, and the whole thing really fits nicely on mandolin. Maybe it's the nature of the writing - the A minor emphasizes the rhythm a little more strongly, and there are fewer very dense chordal passages - both play to the strength of the instrument.

Many people have remarked on the beauty of the Andante, and I fully agree - it's gorgeous. It's always been one of my favorite Bach movements to play on mandolin, and this performance just cements that in my mind.

Finally, the concluding Allegro may be my favorite track on the album. The tempo is perfect - plenty fast for impressive picking, but not so much that you start to loose the thread of the piece and the inner voices can really sing out. The Presto of the B minor runs into that problem somewhat, as incredible as the raw speed of it may be. This version makes me think those not playing it with a pick are really missing out. Chris manages to combine a wonderfully driving attack, while also maintaining phenomenal tonal control. Listen to the way he lets the high and low notes ring out in the middle of some of those long runs. I can hardly imagine it being done better.

[Brandon Flynn]

Here's a video fresh off the presses.

He has a short memory lapse on that one. Watched the whole sonata, not up to his usual technical standards those performances. Don't get me wrong, still very good, but he also kind of messes up a chord in the opening movement if I recall correctly. Only other time I've really seen him screw up like that is when I saw him lose his grip on the pick while playing with Edgar Meyer once. Playing all of them in concerts soon will be quite the task. I hope for his sake it is more enjoyable than stressful.

[JeffD]

In other words, I feel like my familiarity with the mandolin (this is the mando cafe after all!) allows me to experience Bach on this album in a multimodal way that I am not able to when it's played on violin.

I think this is very true. We experience the music from inside, so to speak, from the fingers as well as from the ear. That's how it feels to me. And I mostly don't watch music, I listen to it, but the videos of mandolin players playing Bach are fascinating to watch as well, because, as players, we are looking with a trained eye.

[Sterling]

Its not an athletic competition. Lots of musicians have played Bach on lots of instruments with equally virtuoso technique, CT is only different in that we know his instrument from the player point of view, and we have followed his career and other music.

At my level of playing I would MUCH rather make a run the Bach P&S with a mandolin than a violin. (In either case I would do a pretty poor job of it, though it would be fun.)

Hi Jeff,
To some it is an athletic competition. Not saying that is wrong or right, but that is how some people view technique. Myself however want to hear how a phrase is approached and ended, technique or not.