How to string Baritone Uke in GDAE

[FatBear]

I'm trying for GDAE and like I said: I feel like I'm about 3/4 there.

[Steve Zawacki]

I would not like to say how long I have spent tying out nylon to get my baritone ukes tuned to CGDA but so far I have not found a good result - in fact I have even strung them up with steel & they still did not sound good!
I really hope one of you guys can get a good result as I gave up months ago...

It would seem the GHS 100 Black Nylon Baritone Uke pack should tune up CGDA. The question is whether the increased tension is okay, but should hold as the higher tensions are applied for the same diameter strings on tenor ukes. When a baritone shows up here in the next couple weeks, will give it a shot.

On another note, Pono is now selling a nylon-string-designed tenor guitar. I have a Pono Pro Classic tenor ukulele strung reentrant CGDA (C4-G3-D4-A4) and the sound is super. May try a C3 string (have to look through the stockpile for something the right size), but am not sure it would be worth it. Simply took a regular GCEA uke pack, swapped the G and C around, tuned the E to D and left the A alone. It's a cheap way, but works on most uke sizes (again, no baritone here, but have all the other sizes) fairly well.

[FatBear]

I wrote an email to GHS, telling them that I really liked the one black E string I put on my baritone ukulele and asking if they had other similar strings for G,D and A. I'm going to excerpt part of the reply here for two reasons: one, this might be useful to others trying this tuning and two, as an example of extremely good customer service.

Dave forwarded me your email, inquiring about strings for fifths tuning on a baritone ukulele. I brought my baritone into the office this morning (a Koloa KU-550) and grabbed some strings to try out.

In regard to using something closer to a .034 for the A string, that would be a little light, mainly because the 2nd/B string in our 100 set for standard baritone tuning is already a .036, so I used a .040 black nylon, which works very well. The other strings I used were for the 3rd/D String a .034 wound string and for the 4th/G string I used a .043 wound. I'm going to let them settle in a bit more, but tonally they sound very even across the board, and have a consistent feel as well. If you're curious, you can order these strings (either through one of our fine dealers, or direct through our online store) using the part numbers below:


1/E - T1BK
2/A - T3BK
3/D - T5S
4/G - T6S


Hope that helps, Brian. Please let me know if you have any other questions/concerns.

Pretty amazing: he actually brought in his own instrument and almost the same model as mine. Needless to say, I've got their web store open and will be ordering a trial set of these strings.

[fox]

That is a good result I wonder if they could be as helpful with CGDA?

[FatBear]

Ask fast, he's got his ukulele in the office today...

[fox]

I sent a mail to Andybanjos http://www.andybanjo.com/ to see if he could help with some short scale CGDA nylon strings, this is his reply....


Re: nylon strings for s/s tenor CGDA‏

andybanjo@andybanjo.com (andybanjo@andybanjo.com)
8:50 AM
andybanjo@andybanjo.com

Sorry, its a next-to-impossible set/tuning in NYLON
with metal strings, CGDA is easily done on a 20" tenor

the snag is that the top A is very close to the maximum tension even on
quite thin (0.009" 0.011)strings

the thinnest commonly available nylon string is 0.020" - trying to get
that string up to A is very difficult; even you do achieve the tuning,
the service life of that string will usually be quite short

that pretty much explains why you are having such difficulty finding a
set of strings. for ease of working, stick to metal strings (for which
the instrument was originally designed) or use a different tuning for
nylon strings (DGBE - baritone uke - works quite well)

regards, andybanjo

[FatBear]

I'm not an expert, but I am pretty skeptical about that. Maybe he means that there isn't an off-the shelf set or something? There are nylon strung mandolins out there and the high E is going to be roughly the same tension on a mandolin as the high A is on the longer scaled tenor. Classical guitars have an even longer scale length and their high E is probably about the same tension as a tenor's A would be. And they make high tension classical guitar strings which Andy might not have considered.

The set that Jon Moody at GHS recommended for my GDAE is from classical guitar strings. I don't know if they are high tension or not. He based his recommendation for the black string set on the fact that I liked the one black E string I put on last week. You would have to ask him if he can figure out a CGDA set. He did ask me some questions about CGDA tuning and I think he was going to try and work out a suggested set.

[fox]

Well once you get bored with GDAE you might want to try the much better sounding CGDA & help me out

[FatBear]

I like the low, mellow sound of my all-mahogany baritone. I can get CGDA with the capo and then I don't need to worry about stretching my stubby fingers, either.

On the other hand, CGDA with the capo might not sound as good as CGDA on the full length fretboard. Maybe once you figure it out I will try copying you.

[fox]

I wonder if I could get CGDA by using a steel .10 for the A and nylon for the other strings?

[FatBear]

Seems like having one steel string amongst all those nylon ones would sound really jarring. Have you asked that guy at GHS if he can recommend a set of strings for CGDA? (Be sure and specify which CGDA: a 5th lower than mandolin.) Let me know if you want his email address. I don't think it would be right to publish it out in the open.

Otherwise, you live on an island, right? So someone around there must sell fishing line. I read a note in a youtube comment section where the player (who played clawhammer ukulele masterfully) said he used 20# fishing line for his top string. That wasn't tuned to A, but the lesson is that there probably is a weight of fishing line that would tune to A without being too tight or too floppy. You'd just have to experiment. You'll probably want to use a pretty high quality line so it is consistent.

[zoukboy]

I sent a mail to Andybanjos http://www.andybanjo.com/ to see if he could help with some short scale CGDA nylon strings, this is his reply....


Re: nylon strings for s/s tenor CGDA‏

andybanjo@andybanjo.com (andybanjo@andybanjo.com)
8:50 AM
andybanjo@andybanjo.com
<SNIP>
the thinnest commonly available nylon string is 0.020"

That is simply incorrect. I have D'Addario nylon strings in .019 and .018, and La Bella makes .017 and .016.

FWIW, I used the .018 for a Bb4 (1/2 step higher than the A you are referring to) on a 22.44" scale oud and it worked fine at 10.33 lbs of tension. What is the scale length of the instrument you are trying to restring?

[fox]

Hi zoukboy, it would be great if you can suggest a suitable set to match my 20" scale baritone ukulele.

[zoukboy]

Hi zoukboy, it would be great if you can suggest a suitable set to match my 20" scale baritone ukulele.

Fox,

Happy to do so. What are the standard string gauges for your instrument in baritone uke tuning? With that info we can try and match tensions for CGDA.

[fox]

Well I am not sure what the Aquila 21U Ukulele Baritone DGBE set diameters are but I think the standard is around 1st 28 - 34 - 30 - 35?

[zoukboy]

Well I am not sure what the Aquila 21U Ukulele Baritone DGBE set diameters are but I think the standard is around 1st 28 - 34 - 30 - 35?

I looked up the D'Addario baritone set and it has the same gauges. They provide the mass per unit length data in their string tension brochure, so I was able to figure the tensions for that set:

E4 .028" Nylon .00002216 10.11#
B3 .034" Nylon .00003267 8.25#
D3 .030" NylW .00012419 19.7#
G3 .035" NyW .00020667 18.44#
Total 56.5#

The B string above looks light to me - did you have the Aquila set on your baritone?

Here are the tensions for a similar set for CGDA:

A4 .021" Nylon 10.11#
D4 .029" Nylon 8.48#
G3 .030" NylW 19.7#
C3 .040" NylW 20.02#
Total 58.31#

You might try the .029" on the D and if it feels floppy go with a .030", and the .040" might feel tight on the C in which case you could substitute a .038".

[fox]

OK thanks, I will get my act together over the next few days.
I do have a large stock of fishing nylon & we do have a fantastic tackle shop .. no decent music shops unfortunately!
In fact we only have one guitar shop although that one shop will stock some nylon six string sets.

[zoukboy]

If anyone is interested in how to figure string tension the formula is fairly simple:

T = (UW x (2 x L x F)²) / 386.4

T = tension in pounds
UW = unit weight, or mass per unit of length, in pounds per linear inch
L = scale length in inches
F = frequency in hertz

For instance, if you have a 20" scale baritone uke as Fox does, and you wanted to see what string gauges might work for mandola tuning C3 G3 D4 A4, you would multiply 20 by the frequency of each of the strings:

A4 440hz x 20 = 880
D4 293.66hz x 20 = 5873.2
G3 196hz x 20 = 3920
C3 130.81hz x 20 = 2616.2

For the first string A4 you then multiply 880 x 2 = 17,600
then square that number: 17,600² = 309,760,000
This is then multiplied by the UW, which varies for string type and gauge. The .021 plain nylon I recommended has a UW of .00001246

309,706,000 x .00001246 = 3,859.6

Then divide that by 386.4

3859.6/386.4 = 9.98#

T = 9.98# (Note: I used the wrong UW for the .021" in my previous message.)


To calculate the second string D4 you multiply 20" x 293.66hz = 5,873.2 x 2 = 11,746.4

11,746.4² = 137,977,912.96

137,977,912.96 x the UW for .029" .0002377

137,977,912.96 x .00002377 = 3,279.73

3,279.73/386.4 = 8.48#


For the third string G3 .020" nylon wound:

20" x 196hz = 3,920

3,920 x 2 = 7,840

7840² = 61,465,600

61,465,600 x .00012419 (UW for .030" nylon wound string) = 7,633.41

7,633.41/386.4 = 19.75#


For the fourth string C3 .040" nylon wound string:

20" x 130.81hz = 2,616.2

2,616.2 x 2 = 5,232.4

5,232.4² = 27,378,009.76

27,378,009.76 x .00028260 (UW for .040" nylon wound string) = 7,737.02

7,737.02/386.4 = 20.02#

If you know the tension you want to maintain you can figure UW with this formula:

UW = (T x 386.4) / (2 X L X F)²

There are online string tension calculators that are pretty handy, but so far the ones that are really easy to use only do plain steel, nickel wound, phosphor bronze wound, and other metallic strings. I haven't found one for nylon strings that is convenient to use.

[zoukboy]

Stringing a baritone uke for octave mandolin tuning G2 D3 A3 E4 might work like this:

Standard set tensions:
E4 .028" Nylon .00001246 9.98#
B3 .034" Nylon .00003267 8.25#
D3 .030" NylW .00012419 19.7#
G3 .035" NyW .00020667 18.44#
Total 56.37#

Similar tensions restrung for GDAE:

E4 .028" Nylon .00001246 9.98# (same as standard set)
A3 .039" Nylon .00004298 8.61#
D3 .036" NylW .00022060 19.7#
G2 .050" NylW .00045369 18.0#
Total 56.29#

I arrived at these gauges by this formula: UW = (T x 386.4) / (2 X L X F)²

I multiplied each tension figure for the four gauges in the standard set by 386.4, then divided by the (2 x L x F)² figure to get an approximate UW for each string and then cross-referenced those UWs with the D'Addario figures and chose the gauges with the closest UW. I then recalculated the tensions to see how close they were.

[fox]

That is fantastic information - thank you for your trouble to explain.

I do however wonder about the consistency of nylon especially with the plain strings.
There would appear to be a huge variation among the types of nylon available.
A .20 could have a breaking strain of 10lb or 30lb depending on the make, use & type!
So I assume it would be difficult to calculate unless there is a standard form?

[FatBear]

I bet the UW corrects for the variation.

[fox]

Ok I can see how the formula works a bit more clearly now that it is morning time for me!
So the UW is obviously a critical factor but how do you establish the UW.

[zoukboy]

I bet the UW corrects for the variation.

Exactly!

[zoukboy]

Ok I can see how the formula works a bit more clearly now that it is morning time for me!
So the UW is obviously a critical factor but how do you establish the UW.

For D'Addario products I use this document:Attachment 128138

For other products you would need to consult the manufacturer, but for a given string material and type of construction I think the data would be fairly consistent from manufacturer to manufacturer. The UW is mass per unit length, so it is the overall mass that is the crucial factor in string tension. Other variables such as the core diameter on wound metallic strings affect stiffness/flexibility but not tension, i.e., a nickel or bronze wound string with a thicker core diameter/thinner wrap diameter will play stiffer, as if it is higher tension than the same gauge with thinner core/thicker wrap, but the tension will be the same if the mass per unit length is the same.

[zoukboy]

FYI:

For plain steel, bronze and nickel wound, as well as "half round" and "XSG/Pro Steels" stainless steel strings I use this online tension calculator:

http://www.bangzero.org/stringtension/

It won't do nylon or wound nylon strings, though.