Instrument Glue - Fish or Hide, Same?

[UncleNorm]

Maybe this has been covered before, don't know. What's been your experience/advice in using Fish glue (say Lee Valley) instead of Hot or bottled Hide Glue? The "animal" content factors are similar but the Fish comes in a bottle and would have additives to stabilize it and provide a longer "open" time. Why don't more people fixing instruments use Fish glue? Thanks.

[Paul Hostetter]

Fish glue is far more susceptible to softening and coming loose in situations of higher humidity and temperature. Great under "ideal" circumstances, really disappointing in the real world.

[Yaron Naor]

Fish glue is far more susceptible to softening and coming loose in situations of higher humidity and temperature. Great under "ideal" circumstances, really disappointing in the real world.

Agree with Paul, I used Lee fish glue and it is a good product but joints came apart and bridges came up after 1 year and under higher humidity and temperature
really disappointing in the real world
Good luck
Yaron.

[pfox14]

Fish glue has a longer open time than hot hide glue making it a bit more versatile for different applications. Bottle hide glue is useless and I wouldn't ever use it. Hot hide glue is the best IMHO.

[Pete Jenner]

I've stopped using fish glue because I had some bindings pop off. I think the glue was a little old. The jury is still out on fish glue as far as I'm concerned.

[Bernie Daniel]

Fish glue has a longer open time than hot hide glue making it a bit more versatile for different applications. Bottle hide glue is useless and I wouldn't ever use it. Hot hide glue is the best IMHO.

I think most agree that hide glue with urea that is sold under the Franklin label (among others) might not be as good as fresh HHG for instrument construction.

OTOH, I wonder if "useless" is a fair description?

John Hammlet provided a link to a detailed and really well designed study to test the strength of wood glues -- many aspects of the bond strength were evaluated. It was conducted by a reputable and experienced materials testing laboratory.

In these tests bottled hide glue compared very well with the HHG and other glues including epoxy and polyurethane in most aspects evaluated. I downloaded & saved the article and I think I an find it if there is interest or maybe John will re-post it?

[Bernie Daniel]

I've stopped using fish glue because I had some bindings pop off. I think the glue was a little old. The jury is still out on fish glue as far as I'm concerned.

Your results correspond to the other comments on this string -- kind of disappointing as I had been thinking I should get some. The impression I had was that fish glue is "as good as hot hide glue without the drawback of having to work so quickly -- but this string indicates such in not the case at all. Could have figured as much -- there is no free lunch! LOL

[Pete Jenner]

I'll get some more and do some more testing.

[Liuteria d'Insieme]

I use fish glue sometimes in restoration, when I want some really transparent glue but just in parts that are not under tension. Hot hide glue is the best to me and we build everything in our workshop with that, never had problems. When I need something rude I use titebond, never tried bottle hide glues as I always had bad reviews on it.

Marco

[UncleNorm]

Thank you all. Pretty much what I expected...if it's too easy, it doesn't work in the real world!

[Pete Jenner]

I think fish glue must be fresh and stored properly. It's orders of magnitude better than the Franklin liquid hide glue but if you can work with the really short open time, nothing beats hot hide glue IMO.

[Bernie Daniel]

Guys before you write off liquid hide glue totally And let me assure I don't sell the stuff

Here is the article that John found. As you can see it is a very through and detailed study and in this study liquid hide glue essentially tied or even beat hot hide glue.

So glue and figure --LOL.

[Champlin]

Interesting read. I haven't seen that brand of liquid hide glue they have there.. just the Franklin brand at the hardware store. I personally don't use it because of all the bad press. Besides, it's pretty satisfying to go through the process of weighing, mixing, heating, and using HHG. I imagine the manufacture date of liquid hide glue makes a difference. It has a shelf life, no? I also use regular old Titebond for some stuff just because of the longer open time.

Frank Ford did this less scientific experiment just between HHG and Titebond some years back... frets.com

[Marty Jacobson]

I've used Old Brown glue for some of my side laminations. The time it takes to fixture the parts rules out using a traditionally applied hot hide glue, though I have been curious to try James Ham's steam-activated hide glue trick, at least for assembling the boxes.

The Old Brown glue works fine for laminations. It worked in 90 percent of the cases. I did have one instrument on which it just didn't stick in one place. Everywhere else, it stuck great. I am a little more confident in using urea-formaldehyde glue, though it is messier and hard to clean up.

[Mike Black]

I have been curious to try James Ham's steam-activated hide glue trick, at least for assembling the boxes.

I've been doing it that way since the article came out in the GAL. I've been doing it that way for braces as well. It makes working with HHG a joy now.

[fishtownmike]

I read that article in the gal and found that method very interesting. Haven't tried it yet.

[j. condino]

...........I have been curious to try James Ham's steam-activated hide glue trick, at least for assembling the boxes......

I know Jim and I was at that GAL workshop where he demonstrated the technique. I have a lot of respect for his work....but one huge thing about that workshop and corresponing article that seems to get missed by 99% of the folks I run into is that it works best for instruments like the double bass and cello, which he demonstrated on, that are designed to be taken apart repeatedly throughout their life cycle and typically the top / back plates are assembled with about 25% strength watered down glue to facilitate this process. I use the technique in restoration, but not with something like a new mandolin or guitar construction that I want to hold together for a long time .

As for the fish glue, I used it once, and then the fingerboard came off the neck of my mandolin while field testing in central Mexico. Try going down to the local market and trying to find ground hide glue in your best gringo Spanish....

As for the liquid hide glue in the brown bottle....this is the mess I cleaned up after another "expert" did a repair using it and it subsequently fell apart. Actually, I don;t think it ever even fully setup... Why go to all of that work just to "save" a few minutes of time when we know hot hide glue lasts for centuries???? Wanna get folks riled up around here....trash talk their personal glue choices....'nuff talking and typin'; I'm shutting down and headed off to a gig!

j.
www.condino.com

[fscotte]

The LMII white glue is as strong as anything. I glued two maple wedges together for my back plate, but didn't like how they glued together so after 30 minutes I tried to separate the wedges and absolutely could not. Standing on it, jumping on it, put it in a vice... nada... That's when I decide to start using it exclusively.

[Charles E.]

The way I think about it is, a horse is many times stronger then a fish, therefore hot hide glue will be many times stronger then fish glue.




Wait for it...........

[fscotte]

Not as strong as shark glue.

[Mandolinshockandawe]

Not as strong as shark glue.

Brand name = Sharknado glue

[Paul Hostetter]

The way I think about it is, a horse is many times stronger then a fish, therefore hot hide glue will be many times stronger then fish glue.

One thorny little detail: hide glue is derived from bovine sources, not equine.

[sunburst]

Hmmmm, I think I'll try to find some Chuck Norris glue...

[Bernie Daniel]

One thorny little detail: hide glue is derived from bovine sources, not equine.

The industry has too long been guilty of trying to hide that!

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Charles E - "..therefor hot hide glue will be many times stronger than fish glue.". Not in the 'smelly' stakes it's not !!,
Ivan