Mixed Feelings...

[JeffD]

And that Johann Sebastian Bach. A lot of people like him, but it has to be said, he was no Mozart.

[mtucker]

And that Johann Sebastian Bach. A lot of people like him, but it has to be said, he was no Mozart.

And folks said 'Lloyd Loar was no Orville Gibson!' ...it was painfully obvious, he only lasted there a few years!

[poymando]

"On one hand, Southern Flavor is one of my favorite tunes to play. I play the lead very differently from Monroe's way of playing it, but the melody and chord progression of the B part are always where I can have a blast devising new melodic runs.

On the other, though, I just find most of his playing to be sort of "sloppy choppy," too thin, staccato, and, well, just messy for my own personal tastes. I could continue about how I also feel that his playing was somewhat limited in scope, but I digress. I don't want this to become a derailment where we just make petty comparisons".



Bill Monroe was not a sloppy player nor was he limited in scope. Ask Andy Statman about who he thinks was the most "outside" musician...
I can appreciate you saying that you simply don't care for Monroe's playing but from reading your post, I don't think you know enough about the music to ably say his playing was "sloppy". We each have our own sense of taste and I think that it is completely fair to simply say "I don't like Bill Monroe's mandolin playing" and leave it at that. I do though think that if you're going to speak to the specifics of his playing you should have the knowledge and experience to back your opinion up if you want to be taken seriously.

[Pete Jenner]

...and Richard Trevithick was no George Stephenson.

[mrmando]

I don't see Bill's playing as some sort of backwards technology that was good enough at the time but we have now surpassed. I think that is a bad analogy for any type of music.

Well, that's good, because after all, bluegrass is full of breakdowns.

[Alex Orr]

I think Mr. Monroe would prefer people to play as individuals and not be little Monroe Clones.

Maybe...or maybe he'd listen to your "individuality" and say, "That ain't no part of nothing!"

[bratsche]

"And that Johann Sebastian Bach. A lot of people like him, but it has to be said, he was no Mozart."

History may not repeat itself, but it definitely rhymes.

I probably wouldn't have clicked on this thread if it had "bluegrass" in the title (there's only so much time in the day after all!) But I will listen to YouTube bits of bluegrass and Bill Monroe occasionally. It doesn't touch my soul, but my secondary auditory cortex can be stimulated positively by it in small doses. That is, until the singing begins. Nothing will make me hit the stop and back out buttons faster than the high lonesome stuff. That to me is like nails on a chalkboard.

bratsche

[Mandosummers]

I love Bill's 's tunes... as long as someone else is playing them.

[mtucker]

and the Preakness ain't no Kentucky Derby either...their grass isn't blue!

[Larry Simonson]

In regard to Monroe's mandolin playing I think a good sign of its greatness is the thousands of players who do their best to "sound like Bill". I can't think of a more convincing measure. Geeze, I wish there were just one player who wished they could sound like me.

[tiltman]

I think Mr. Monroe would prefer people to play as individuals and not be little Monroe Clones.

Agreed. In fact, I just read that he told Frank Wakefield it was time for him to go out and do music his own way.
And look what he did!

Kirk

[MikeEdgerton]

...Geeze, I wish there were just one player who wished they could sound like me.

Post a sound clip. I have to know what I'm shooting for.

[Steve Sorensen]

As long as somebody is playing the mandolin, I for it. Sure glad Bill stepped into that barbershop way back then.

Steve

[belbein]

For me, that's the "Robert Johnson Blues" side of BM. Can't relate to it, personally, with almost no dynamics and timing that could be charitably described as "loose." But it's real, and it's authentic, and it's great for what it is.

Well, two observations.

1. I love blues. Still, I find the real old stuff, like Robert Johnson hard to enjoy because ... well, it isn't what I like, I guess. But given what he awakened in the people who came after him, I have to respect him.
2. That video is everything I've come to dislike about Bluegrass. The playing is fabulous, the speed incredible. But when music becomes a race to see whose fingers move fastest, it just loses my interest. I couldn't get through 2:21 of it.

Just me. Many much more intelligent people and more educated people than I have different opinions.

[DataNick]

Well, two observations.

1. I love blues. Still, I find the real old stuff, like Robert Johnson hard to enjoy because ... well, it isn't what I like, I guess. But given what he awakened in the people who came after him, I have to respect him.
2. That video is everything I've come to dislike about Bluegrass. The playing is fabulous, the speed incredible. But when music becomes a race to see whose fingers move fastest, it just loses my interest. I couldn't get through 2:21 of it.

Just me. Many much more intelligent people and more educated people than I have different opinions.

Which video Brad?

[Tom Haywood]

This is like saying that I respect Chuck Berry as a pioneer of a new style of music that remains popular today and I like a few of his songs a lot, but I think his guitar playing is simple and crude and is not what I would want to play. I'm certainly entitled to that opinion. I would hesitate to post it on a rock and roll guitar player web forum unless I was looking for an argument. But I think the reality is that had he not written those songs, had he not played those guitar riffs exactly the way he did, had he not recorded all of that, rock and roll would have become something very different than what we know, and many of the great players who learned to play from his records and concerts, and went on to improve upon his sound and create their own, might not have become our guitar heroes. It is easy to argue that Jerry Garcia played Johnny B. Goode better than Chuck Berry, but I recall reading somewhere that he said it was one of the first songs he learned to play on the guitar and that he was simply trying to get the same sound that Berry got on that song and was disappointed that he never could quite get it. I think Berry's style is a lot like Monroe's style. It is choppy most of the time, it implies notes rather than playing them in order to play faster, and the notes that are played are exactly the right notes to sound the style. The technique works very well for an exciting stage performance and in a setting that used primitive technical equipment by today's standards. So, I may not want to play like either of those guys, but what does that matter. They are still great musicians and players in their own right, not merely a point of historical interest in a museum. The more I learn about the mandolin the more I want to learn how Monroe played it, because he understood it. Seems like everybody wants to play Jerusalem Ridge like the Rice brothers did and that's great. Monroe's version is simple and even crude, but to me it makes the truest statement of the tune. That's worth learning IMO.

[almeriastrings]

Interesting you mention Chuck Berry. I agree there are similarities (not least that Chuck's licks on electric guitar are remarkably similar to some of the stuff Monroe was doing a couple of decades earlier - Blue Grass Special, for example). Also, these terms "crude" or "sloppy".... there is a great sequence where Chuck Berry and Keith Richards "get into it"...

Listen to exactly what Chuck Berry says. That could be Monroe talking.



Priceless! That is quite a guitar lesson!!!

[GratefulDel321]

yea if you dont have proper grammar a lot of people like to chastise you cuz of it only because there grammar is perfect everytime they right a post or reply its really disrespectful to them they think and they would rather talk about that than contribute to your post

uh oh i didnt use proper grammar here they come!!

[mandolirius]

yea if you dont have proper grammar a lot of people like to chastise you cuz of it only because there grammar is perfect everytime they right a post or reply its really disrespectful to them they think and they would rather talk about that than contribute to your post

uh oh i didnt use proper grammar here they come!!

???????

[sgarrity]

That Chuck Berry video is priceless!!

[Mike Bunting]

Interesting you mention Chuck Berry. I agree there are similarities (not least that Chuck's licks on electric guitar are remarkably similar to some of the stuff Monroe was doing a couple of decades earlier - Blue Grass Special, for example). Also, these terms "crude" or "sloppy".... there is a great sequence where Chuck Berry and Keith Richards "get into it"...

Listen to exactly what Chuck Berry says. That could be Monroe talking.



Priceless! That is quite a guitar lesson!!!

That's from "Hail,Hail, Rock and Roll" isn't it? What a cool lick that vibrato thing is. What would Keith have done if there hadn't been a Chuck Berry?

[almeriastrings]

Yes. There are definitely some major parallels in approach between Monroe and Berry. Both brilliant songwriters too. Both developed a sound so distinctive it only takes a few bars to tell who it is. What I think a lot of people miss (and superbly conveyed by Berry in that clip above, especially when talking about his amp settings) is that they sounded exactly like that BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. Not because they lacked the skill to sound different (aka "better"). Monroe could sound very different - when he felt like it "My Last Days on Earth" being a prime example. There is also that timing thing going on with both Berry and Monroe where it sometimes sounds like they are just tipping over the edge.... but never do. That is hard to get just right. They "get into the groove" and it is like train, but with a touch of time-warp... very subtle and distinctive. As said before, anyone who thinks it is easy - try it.

Interesting in that clip too that Keith says that he heard Chuck's guitar and "knew that's what he wanted to do". Ricky Skaggs says the same thing about Monroe on the Bluegrass Mandolin Extravaganza CD, right before he delivers a blistering "Blue Grass Special".

Monroe and Berry. Both uncompromising personalities... both created some of best music ever (in my opinion).

[Mike Bunting]

Yes. There are definitely some major parallels in approach between Monroe and Berry. Both brilliant songwriters too. Both developed a sound so distinctive it only takes a few bars to tell who it is. What I think a lot of people miss (and superbly conveyed by Berry in that clip above, especially when talking about his amp settings) is that they sounded exactly like that BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. Not because they lacked the skill to sound different (aka "better"). Monroe could sound very different - when he felt like it "My Last Days on Earth" being a prime example. There is also that timing thing going on with both Berry and Monroe where it sometimes sounds like they are just tipping over the edge.... but never do. That is hard to get just right. They "get into the groove" and it is like train, but with a touch of time-warp... very subtle and distinctive. As said before, anyone who thinks it is easy - try it.

Interesting in that clip too that Keith says that he heard Chuck's guitar and "knew that's what he wanted to do". Ricky Skaggs says the same thing about Monroe on the Bluegrass Mandolin Extravaganza CD, right before he delivers a blistering "Blue Grass Special".

Monroe and Berry. Both uncompromising personalities... both created some of best music ever (in my opinion).

Amen. And, when I listen to "To Much Monkey Business", I can't help think of some of the debt that Bob Dylan owes Chuck Berry in the songwriting department.

[almeriastrings]

Listening to that, Mike - I also think there is proto-rap going on there!

[Tom Coletti]

I think we've all made our points. I'm taking a break from the forums for a while and will try to look at things in context and with a new perspective. Other than that, I think that this thread, like those before it, has performed its task--a sort of pondering out loud of something that has bugged me for a while, with input from various points of view--but I feel like the thread is in jeopardy of veering off-topic, into redundant circuits, or in a manner not unlike that portrayed in the above image, so you can continue to discuss other genres or what hasn't properly grammatical or some other oddities, but I'll leave this one be.

If I drop off the radar, it's because I'd like to try to not be "sloppy choppy" myself and need practice, more plucking and less clucking. And Dobro. I really want to play some Dobro...

--Tom